"Holodomer"

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South
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"Holodomer"

Post by South » 17 Apr 2019 10:15

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Good morning all,

Article about the 1932-33 Ukrainian famine induced by Stalin.

Article has the UN definition of "genocide".

~ Bob

Art
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Re: "Holodomer"

Post by Art » 17 Apr 2019 11:16

Well, as already commented many times before:
1) Famine in Ukraine wasn't different from famine elsewhere (e.g. Volga or North Caucasus region) which the article completely "forgets" to mention. Actually only about a half of famine-caused deaths occurred in Ukraine, and the other half - elsewhere.
2) An immediate cause was a bad harvest of 1932.
3) There are no reliable evidences that Stalin or anybody else actually intended to cause famine.
4) State grain procurement in Ukraine during the 1932-33 agricultural year was actually much smaller than before or after.
5) Soviet government organized food and seed help to famine-struck regions.
6) Soviet repressive policies in Ukraine (arrests, deportations, confiscations of crops, restriction of migration) were the same as policies in other regions.
7) Famine didn't target specific national or ethnic groups - Russians, Poles, Jews, Kazakhs etc died of famine as well as Ukrainians.

For the best available discussion of causes and consequences see:
https://www.amazon.com/Years-Hunger-Agr ... 0333311078
Note how carefully the article avoids mentioning the names of Davies and Wheatcroft and alternative point of view in general. Quite typical of unabashed propagandism.

South
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Re: "Holodomer"

Post by South » 18 Apr 2019 07:54

Good morning Art,

Appreciate the quality info you provided.

In reply to some of the points presented;

I am always pointing out that these publications, whether it is "History.com" or the Washington Post or or the US think tanks like MITRE and RAND or the New China News Agency or BBC History or TASS - all have their "biases" and agendas.

Ref "3"; I cannot discuss intent. I can discuss the event. This is a bloc of scholarship arguing that Moscow's new collective agriculture programs induced the famine - or at least added to the dire food shortage situation.

Ref "6"; The link was clearly about the Ukraine. Of course there were other crop harvest failures in the other areas.

American readers, knowledgeable or students of history, know the Ukraine by its 19th century nickname "the breadbasket of Europe". Of course, other groups in the area(s) were affected.

As an aside, the US "dust bowl" farming failures in Oklahoma, USA around this same time gets listed with the European farming problems. John Steinbeck's book "The Grapes of Wrath" tells of the problems from the American perspective. The slang identification term "Okie" was recently used here at AHF by a highly-knowledgeable historian. I was impressed.

With more time for research, we can now see that governmental controls over agriculture - the collectivization program(s) - were failures.

~ Bob

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wm
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Re: "Holodomer"

Post by wm » 25 Apr 2019 20:17

If an immediate cause was a bad harvest of 1932 why there was no famine in the Polish part of Ukraine, and Poland suffered from food surplus at the same time.

Art
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Re: "Holodomer"

Post by Art » 25 Apr 2019 20:53

So there was no bad harvest in Poland.

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wm
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Re: "Holodomer"

Post by wm » 25 Apr 2019 21:55

Maybe, but it's somewhat improbable that the not especially well-guarded border could have stopped the famine.

The problem wasn't famine, but the fact the Soviet peasants were reduced to mere dairy cattle. If the owner didn't help, didn't care, or was too inept to help the cattle were going to die.
In Poland, the starving peasant would get help from other people (well maybe), from the State (less likely), or would find work somewhere else - in Poland, Germany, the US. He wouldn't die - well, because he was free.

Maybe the Soviets/Stalin didn't intend to cause famine but still, they were directly responsible.

Art
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Re: "Holodomer"

Post by Art » 25 Apr 2019 23:07

Well, Poland in 1933 wasn't critically short on food, while the Soviet Union was, which makes this discussion somewhat abstract. As for seed and food relief from the government see the point 5) above.
There is no doubt that the Sov. government was responsible for the economical policy in general and economical policy leading to famine in particular. However, I object to the statement that famine was created by deliberate design.

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