Nuremburg Trials -who wanted them

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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witness
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#46

Post by witness » 14 Jun 2003, 02:51

walterkaschner wrote: And certainly his anti-Jewish diatribes did little or nothing to induce those actually responsible to carry out the programs against the Jews. Those would have been carried out with or without Streicher's urging.
I myself have difficulties defining my atittude to this verdict. But just a thought .
Could not many ( perhaps majority ?) of those who were responsible for the Final Solution have been influenced by the "Der Stürmer" ? Given that the circulation of "Der Stürmer" approximated such a mighty US periodical as "The New York Times '' and it's subsequent propaganda effect , one can assume that many of those people who were already Anti-Semitic and therefore predisposed to absorbing such propaganda would end up in the "rank and file" of those materializing this Solution ?
Could not it be that those diatribes were responsible for preparing this murderous psychology where the victims simply were not considered to be human beings at all but "Pests and Parasites " which greatly alleviated the very process of murder ?
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#47

Post by demonio » 14 Jun 2003, 04:00

For Witness. I cant recall the source but im pretty confident that it was recommended reading for camp guards and that a copy could always be found in the KL guards mess hall within the camps.
Whilst i dont believe the magazine alone greatly influenced people to commit murder it would have made people more comfortable with the idea and perhaps helped to make the guards take to their "jobs" with extra zeal.

for example. Guard (probably a bottom dweller in normal society), reads one of Streicher's cartoons depicting the virginal german girl being group raped nailed to the cross whilst having her blood drained by the evil jew then goes out and shoots a few inmates at random.


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#48

Post by David Thompson » 14 Jun 2003, 04:20

Do the posters who think the death penalty was appropriate for Julius Streicher also feel that his example should be applied to any contemporary pornographers, producers of violent television shows, films and video games, or xenophobic talk-show hosts?

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#49

Post by demonio » 14 Jun 2003, 04:38

thats a great point. Under the right or wrong govt conditions they probably would face death. ie imagine if Streicher was on USA side and published anti germanic propaganda that helped make soldiers more comfortable killing them. He would have recieved a commendation, not damnation assuming the USA won. If they lost and the Germans invaded USA and got hold of him ????
Last edited by demonio on 16 Jun 2003, 15:49, edited 1 time in total.

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#50

Post by Charles Bunch » 14 Jun 2003, 04:56

David Thompson wrote:Do the posters who think the death penalty was appropriate for Julius Streicher also feel that his example should be applied to any contemporary pornographers, producers of violent television shows, films and video games, or xenophobic talk-show hosts?
Well I certainly don't feel the death penalty was appropriate.

But I don't see how Streicher's case applies to any of your examples.

It is clear to me that Streicher was convicted based on the belief that his actions incited violence, in this case the exermination of Jews. The tough legal question arises because incitement was not proscribed by the Charter, persecution was.

Today, incitement to violence, as with hate speech, is generally recognized as beyond the free speech protections of western democracies.

An interesting legal dicussion of Streicher, Nuremberg, hate speech and the issue of incitement can be found here:

http://www.law.syr.edu/academics/center ... emberg.pdf

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#51

Post by demonio » 14 Jun 2003, 05:18

Thanks for the link Charles

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#52

Post by Charles Bunch » 14 Jun 2003, 05:55

demonio wrote:Thanks for the link Charles
You're welcome.

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Scott Smith
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#53

Post by Scott Smith » 14 Jun 2003, 06:18

walterkaschner wrote:One may disagree with an particular outcome without condemning the entire process itself. And of all the practical alternatives exisiting at the time, I believe that all things considered the Nuremberg Trials were the best available to demonstrate to the Germans and to the world at large the iniquity of the Nazi regime, and the dangers that the potential evil that lies shallow under our thin veneer of civilization can be heir to.
Well, some on the forum argue that only scholarly legal condemnations are the only ones permissible of the IMT and related trials and that political considerations don't matter. But this is essentially a political argument: to show the world (and especially the German people) how bad the Nazis were (and how good were the Allies).

Now, a layman can easily see legal flaws in the trials--the use of ex post facto law, no lawful jurisdiction, use of hearsay evidence, etc. But even to achieve the political outcome is a hollow mockery of justice. The trials were held by the Victors of the Vanquished and the standards of conduct were not applicable to themselves. An international tribunal could have been held by neutrals to adjudicate fairly the violations of existing international agreements by commanders without the proper authority of their sovereign governments or formal abrogation of those agreements. This is the only way that "war-crimes trials" could have been held with some semblance of humanitarian justice.

But the purpose of the trials was political--to discredit the Nazi leaders. "To show the world," as Mr. Kaschner has eloquently noted. (I wonder if witness will now call him a Nazi propagandist.)

Personally, I can find no redeeming virtues in the Nuremberg Trials, and for all their faults at least the neocons have no intention of allowing American soldiers to be hauled before foreign courts whenever somebody thinks their ox has been gored.
David Thompson wrote:Do the posters who think the death penalty was appropriate for Julius Streicher also feel that his example should be applied to any contemporary pornographers, producers of violent television shows, films and video games, or xenophobic talk-show hosts?
Excellent point. The Moral Majority and some radical-feminists would like to see Larry Flynt dead, and somebody tried just that. They would argue that Hustler magazine causes violence against women and children and spreads immoral ideas.
Walter Kaschner wrote:although I think some penalty was in order I find the death sentence in his case appallingly inappropriate.
But in a society that values free-speech you cannot start banning what some people don't like. What penalty was appropriate for Thoughtcrime? Saying "go kill the Niggers" is just not the same thing as killing the Niggers (or, "the White man is the Devil," as the case may be).

Streicher was a minor Party official whose propaganda appealed to the lower classes. He was tolerated by Hitler because propaganda must be directed to a broad spectrum and not just to the highbrow in the universities. A simple message of "the Jew is our misfortune" brought in an element of support for the Party. The simpler the theme the better in order to move the masses. But let's not overstate the importance of Streicher. He was no Dr. Goebbels, and most Germans were too sophisticated for such crude caricatures. The smoking-gun for "incitement" to Genocide is chalutzim's picture of the German tossing the Jew off Terra Firma? Get real.

Streicher made a good symbol though, and that's why the Allies chose him for their show-trial. Lest somebody like witness chaff at this characterization I will remind you (again) that Mr. Kaschner above noted that the purpose of the trial was to "show the world" the badness of the Nazi regime. But putting Streicher on trial would be like Larry Flynt standing trial for actions of the Democratic Party. Indeed, Flynt is probably a much greater player in party-politics than Streicher ever was.

The Allies that condemned Streicher to death were guilty of some of the most vicious and vile Hate-propaganda ever directed against any people in two world wars, and much of it still goes on to this day. The purpose of this Hate-propaganda was to condition democratic peoples to risk their lives killing and maiming Germans. After the war some of these lies are just quietly forgotten. Others persist and the New World Order is essentially founded on them. At this point some Germans even hate themselves. An anti-Wehrmacht Ausstellung in the USA against our veterans would be unthinkable. As it should be. But let them have their say. Only liars need Thoughtcrimes laws.

Oh, but we weren't Evil, so.
:wink:

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#54

Post by demonio » 14 Jun 2003, 06:51

Can see your points Scott, but we could also argue that with rights come responsabilities. So with the right of Free speech comes the responsability of not going too far. Determining where to draw the line can be difficult however.

My Grandfather "may he rest in peace" was one of Larry Flints close friends and he even went to jail with him in the states back in the day.

Just a useless piece of trivia

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#55

Post by demonio » 14 Jun 2003, 06:58

Are there any camp guards here or people that knew camp guards that know if they always read der sturmer at lunchtime in the camps ?

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#56

Post by viriato » 14 Jun 2003, 14:52

Charles Bunch you wrote:
If you can think of another paper with as bad a reputation, please tell us.
I cannot now quote directly but I'm pretty sure that if you read the Soviet newspapers of the thirties the "kulaks" and the "counter-revolutionary elements inside the USSR" had not a better treatment. The same happened to the Chinese press during the Mao era (at the time of the "Cultural Revolution" for instance) or the (North-)Vietnamese against the "American Imperialists". Not to forget the North Korean press.
You've over interpreted this passage. The Nazi organization leader seems to have ordered reading, the rest merely pushed it.
I don't think so. The words of the passage speak for themselves:
All subordinates were to subscribe, and were to inform him that they had done so. No excuses would be accepted.
As to the newspapers whose circulation you presented to us I would say that you have chosen the wrong comparison. The most suitable one would have been to the "Bild", a newspaper with a circulation of just under 4 million, that is 8/1 against "Der Stürmer". The circulation of the Bild represents almost 5% of the population of Germany today against the 0.7% of "Der Stürmer" back in the thirties. A big difference.

BTW does anyone have access to the circulation of other newspapers and magazines in Germany during the twenties and thirties, including the "Völkischer Beobachter"? It would be interesting to compare them to "Der Stürmer" too.
Last edited by viriato on 14 Jun 2003, 15:00, edited 1 time in total.

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#57

Post by viriato » 14 Jun 2003, 14:59

Thanks Scott Smith for your help! :D

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witness
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#58

Post by witness » 14 Jun 2003, 16:00

But the purpose of the trials was political--to discredit the Nazi leaders.
Is it a mantra ? A prayer ? A belief that repeating the same nonsense over and over again will make it more valuable ?
:lol:
(I wonder if witness will now call him a Nazi propagandist.)
Well I have not seen any unbased claims in the posts of Mr Kashner so far .
As for the purpose and value of the Nuremberg trials I would recommend you to reread the respective Mr.Kashner post .

No ...probably it would not help anyway ... :roll:
. At this point some Germans even hate themselves.
Another mantra ? :)

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#59

Post by Charles Bunch » 14 Jun 2003, 16:47

viriato wrote:Charles Bunch you wrote:
If you can think of another paper with as bad a reputation, please tell us.
I cannot now quote directly but I'm pretty sure that if you read the Soviet newspapers of the thirties the "kulaks" and the "counter-revolutionary elements inside the USSR" had not a better treatment. The same happened to the Chinese press during the Mao era (at the time of the "Cultural Revolution" for instance) or the (North-)Vietnamese against the "American Imperialists". Not to forget the North Korean press.
Since you have been unable to name a newspaper, I think it's clear that Der Sturmer is more notorious than newspapers you can't name and cannot have read.
You've over interpreted this passage. The Nazi organization leader seems to have ordered reading, the rest merely pushed it.
I don't think so. The words of the passage speak for themselves:
All subordinates were to subscribe, and were to inform him that they had done so. No excuses would be accepted.
The words of that passage refer to the district farmers organization, as I indicated. You extrapolated from that to make a point about compulsory reading which is not justified by the passage.
As to the newspapers whose circulation you presented to us I would say that you have chosen the wrong comparison. The most suitable one would have been to the "Bild", a newspaper with a circulation of just under 4 million, that is 8/1 against "Der Stürmer". The circulation of the Bild represents almost 5% of the population of Germany today against the 0.7% of "Der Stürmer" back in the thirties. A big difference.
But irrelevant to the discussion. You claimed a circulation of 486,000 was "risible". Therefore the comparison I drew, the only proper one, was to highly respected national publications from today whose circulations are about the same or less. A circulation of 486,000 in the late 1930's was not risible, irrespective of the fact that there are publications with higher circulations.

Furthermore, the circulation for special issues of Der Sturmer was much higher, as was the readership.

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#60

Post by Blackheart » 15 Jun 2003, 18:49

Why was Jodl prosecuted? Can someone give me some details about his "excomunication" in 1952 (or was it 53?)
Black

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