Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Peter89
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Peter89 » 19 Aug 2019 11:21

Every belligerents had their own crimes against humanity / war crimes. One does not and can not overshadow the other.

Ever since the WW2 we have been living in a relatively peaceful age, so many nationals think it was a football match, where there were winners and loosers. Everyone was a looser, Europe lost its leading role in the world, the "Aryan race" started to decline, Russia is economically less powerful than eg. South Korea, the UK has lost its empire, etc. etc.

Some entertain the thought of a rematch, which is like sad, because the Jugoslavs actually did so, and look how happy and prosperous they are now.

It is obvious that Germany went the farthest in facing their war crimes, and it is now a common understanding that they were guilty of a lot of crimes. The modern Germany does nothing but excuse himself and apologizes for the Nazi war crimes.

This is sadly used by other nations to hide their own crimes, and overshadow everything with the "Nazis hit first" argument, which is a poor substitute of an actual argument.

In an ideal world, modern-day Germany's example of facing the past would be followed - and not just by us, a handful of free-thinking intellectuals, but - by the masses as well.

The crimes against humanity in the USSR were mostly independent from the German invasion, so we can talk about them separately.

The crime against the Poles is a good example.

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1040
Joined: 11 Apr 2016 12:29
Location: Germany

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Stiltzkin » 19 Aug 2019 12:55

Ever since the WW2 we have been living in a relatively peaceful age,
That only applies to the Western world, the reason for that is NATO. Orthodox and Muslim societies still face conflict and crisis. The highest chance for a major conflict to spark off however, is in Southeast Asia.
It is obvious that Germany went the farthest in facing their war crimes, and it is now a common understanding that they were guilty of a lot of crimes. The modern Germany does nothing but excuse himself and apologizes for the Nazi war crimes.
Often superficial, apologetic. It is an omnipresent, compulsory subject, but you would be surprised about the statements of various political figures (e.g. AfD).
he "Nazis hit first" argument
Certainly, but did they actually? The Soviets expanded and annected more territory prior to the war in 41, than Germany. Nazi Germany was Stalins ticket to Europe. The Western powers only cared about Western Europe, Eastern Europe was expendable. One could argue that the prerequisite for the Winter War was set in Sept. 1939. We could even reach further back, Khalkhin Gol is another candidate. The Soviets checked how far they could go before Japan drew the line. Does not matter how many monuments they are going to errect, to claim the opposite.
The crimes against humanity in the USSR were mostly independent from the German invasion, so we can talk about them separately
Futile, because there is a massive propaganda programme funded by the Russian government to obfuscate and disinform, nowdays more than ever.
Some entertain the thought of a rematch, which is like sad, because the Jugoslavs actually did so, and look how happy and prosperous they are now.
Serbia is still awaiting their accession into the EU, afterall they paid a high price by selling out their "war heroes". :D

Peter89
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Peter89 » 19 Aug 2019 15:23


That only applies to the Western world, the reason for that is NATO.
The late Warsaw Pact countries are safe and sound too, just like Austria, etc. NATO is not the key here.
Often superficial, apologetic. It is an omnipresent, compulsory subject, but you would be surprised about the statements of various political figures (e.g. AfD).

I am well aware of their sad state of intellect...
Certainly, but did they actually? The Soviets expanded and annected more territory prior to the war in 41, than Germany. Nazi Germany was Stalins ticket to Europe. The Western powers only cared about Western Europe, Eastern Europe was expendable. One could argue that the prerequisite for the Winter War was set in Sept. 1939. We could even reach further back, Khalkhin Gol is another candidate. The Soviets checked how far they could go before Japan drew the line. Does not matter how many monuments they are going to errect, to claim the opposite.
Yes they did, Germany attacked the SU and not the other way around. It is not a question.
Futile, because there is a massive propaganda programme funded by the Russian government to obfuscate and disinform, nowdays more than ever.
Maybe it is more organized and state-funded, but most of the belligerents of WW2 like to maintain a one-sided, simplified version of the war, and the history in general.

SloveneLiberal
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: 23 Jul 2018 12:54
Location: Slovenia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by SloveneLiberal » 19 Aug 2019 16:05

Hmm. Pete89 you forgot the fact that USA got much stronger after WW2 and of course also SU. Yet Russia is weaker today because communism failed first economicaly and than politicaly. Plus Europe today is not divided any more as both the result of ww2 and for west winning cold war.

For Stiltzkin the fact is that SU was annexing a lot of territory in 1939-1940. But was it doing it without the consent of Germany so somehow in hostile way toward it as you suggest or in agreement with it that is the question. According to secret part of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact this was done quite in agreement of both parties.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Peter89 » 19 Aug 2019 18:19

SloveneLiberal wrote:
19 Aug 2019 16:05
Hmm. Pete89 you forgot the fact that USA got much stronger after WW2 and of course also SU. Yet Russia is weaker today because communism failed first economicaly and than politicaly. Plus Europe today is not divided any more as both the result of ww2 and for west winning cold war.

For Stiltzkin the fact is that SU was annexing a lot of territory in 1939-1940. But was it doing it without the consent of Germany so somehow in hostile way toward it as you suggest or in agreement with it that is the question. According to secret part of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact this was done quite in agreement of both parties.
USA itself might got stronger as a result of the WW2, but I only see it as a shift of power centres within the West. The cumulative might of the West is declining ever since.

The USSR could reach out to Central-Eastern Europe only because the West allowed them to do so. Had they postpone the landings in Italy and Normandy, suspend the bombing campaign and stop LL, they could allow the Axis to bleed SU white. It was the Anglo-Saxon doctrine for the mainland Europe: divide and conquer.

Besides, I seriously doubt that SU got stronger by the war. Population, technology, living standards, etc. developed everywhere in the world after 1945, SU was not even improving at the same speed as its occupied countries.

SloveneLiberal
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: 23 Jul 2018 12:54
Location: Slovenia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by SloveneLiberal » 19 Aug 2019 18:58

Oh i see now what do you mean. That would be really bad idea if allies would not be involved in war against Third Reich and its allies. It would mean that many nations in Europe would desapere because of Nazi genocides and ethnocides. Not just Jews.

I understand you are a firm anticommunist but what if Third Reich and SU maybe made again a deal in 1942/43? And besides this i think militarily thtis position is also wrong. SU would win against the Third Reich anyway look at the topic " was German situation so bad in 1942?" where we explained it in details. The only chance of Germany winning against SU was in summer of 1941 until the decision for the offensive against Moscow. It was not the west but the "guilt" of German generals who persuaded Hitler to go against Moscow instead of economic targets as he wished at firts. Please read about this interesting yet very much real facts and conclusions in the above mentioned topic.

Communism did not fail because of ww2 but because capitalism or west has better economy and society. One "smartass" could predict this will happen.

And you think also that it is "bad" if British and French colonies got independent?

Peter89
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Peter89 » 19 Aug 2019 20:05

SloveneLiberal wrote:
19 Aug 2019 18:58
Oh i see now what do you mean. That would be really bad idea if allies would not be involved in war against Third Reich and its allies. It would mean that many nations in Europe would desapere because of Nazi genocides and ethnocides. Not just Jews.

I understand you are a firm anticommunist but what if Third Reich and SU maybe made again a deal in 1942/43? And besides this i think militarily thtis position is also wrong. SU would win against the Third Reich anyway look at the topic " was German situation so bad in 1942?" where we explained it in details. The only chance of Germany winning against SU was in summer of 1941 until the decision for the offensive against Moscow. It was not the west but the "guilt" of German generals who persuaded Hitler to go against Moscow instead of economic targets as he wished at firts. Please read about this interesting yet very much real facts and conclusions in the above mentioned topic.

Communism did not fail because of ww2 but because capitalism or west has better economy and society. One "smartass" could predict this will happen.

And you think also that it is "bad" if British and French colonies got independent?
Germany fought a multi front war, therefore his capacities were divided. The real superpowers in WW2 were the British Empire and the USA. I do not say that without their help the USSR would have lost without question, but I wouldn't underestimate the WAllies' impact on the course of the war. I mostly run into overestimates of the Soviets' impact.

I am against totalitarianism no matter the flag :milwink:
I believe truth is forged in undecisive debates, and there is no final solution for problems.

The independence of the colonies is a good thing from a certain perspective, because with the borders they got from their former masters, they will never be free or strong.

SloveneLiberal
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: 23 Jul 2018 12:54
Location: Slovenia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by SloveneLiberal » 19 Aug 2019 20:31

Well in 1941 really almost all German forces were on the eastern front. And war was lost then for Germany. And sorry also for Hungary... However indeed allied military aid was very important for SU. In 1942 they had very serious economic problems and really badly needed this help. As i pointed out in the debate. But for Germany war was lost before USA entered it. Yet USA really was fighting than mostly alone against Japan.

I do not understand why you are afraid of former colonies? You mean Arabs can unite and attack Europe like under old caliphates or what? Most of former colonies did not fell under Soviet influence during cold war. And they changed borders to. India and Pakistan for example changed colonial borders and today they are both nuclear powers. Or former British Sudan split in southern and northern part. Or former colony of Japan Corea split in two parts.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by gebhk » 19 Aug 2019 20:48

We seem to be moving into another galaxy with regard to subject matter.

SloveneLiberal
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: 23 Jul 2018 12:54
Location: Slovenia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by SloveneLiberal » 20 Aug 2019 10:50

Ok let us go back to the topic. As i pointed out Polish communists were one of the main targets of this purge. Many were living already in SU like for example Maria Koszutska, or were summoned like for ''consultations'' in SU and than killed by its political police.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Koszutska

Pretty much the same methods were at that time used also against Communist party of Yugoslavia, yet in much smaller numbers than PKP.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5344
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Art » 27 Aug 2019 07:23

Statistics on people arrested by the Ukrainian NKVD from 1 October 1936 to 1 June 1938

Total arrested - 253 051
including mass operation:
"Polish line" operation - 54 011
Kharbin - 906
German - 23 036
Romanian - 6188
Latvian - 1995
Greek - 5642
Iran - 503
Bulgarian - 1378
Czech - 289
Others - 657
Total "national' operations - 94 659

National composition of arrested:
Ukrainians - 133 376
Russians - 19 861
Belorussians - 2276
Armenians -513
Uzbeks - 144
Tatars - 210
Jews - 8258
Germans - 25 752
Poles - 45 286
Latvians - 1789
Lithuanians - 241
Estonians - 161
Romanians - 1501
Iranians - 452
Chinese - 132
Koreans - 104
Others - 12 995

Of the number arrested sentenced - 197 945, including 122 274 sentenced to death.

Document published online:
http://istmat.info/node/50126

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5344
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Art » 27 Aug 2019 07:30

Combined statistics on the people arrested by the Ukrainian NKVD from 1.1 to 1.8.38

Total arrested - 97 972, including
Polish counterrevolution and espionage - 21 764
German - 11 248
Romanian - 2275
Bulgarian - 1317
Greek - 1939
Japanese - 434
Latvian - 803
Iranian - 864
Czech - 242
Other - 758

National composition of arrested:
Ukrainians - 51 461
Russians - 8175
Belorussians - 1052
Jews - 3938
Poles - 15 028
Germans - 10 578
Latvians - 690
Romanians - 334
Czechs - 272
Bulgarians - 1292
Greeks - 1950
Moldavians - 975
Armenians - 608
Others - 1619

http://istmat.info/node/50125
http://istmat.info/node/50069

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5344
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Art » 27 Aug 2019 07:43

From a summary of operations against Polish, German, and Latvian agents in the Belorussian SSR from August 1937 to September 1938

Operation against Polish agents.
Total Polish spies, saboteurs and insurgents arrested - 21 407, including
- refugees from Poland - 3088
- polish legionaries - 894
- political emigres - 468
- former smugglers from Poland - 1024
- former members of Polish political parties - 94
- spies - 13 042
- saboteurs - 2679
- insurgents and members of POV - 4425
- counterrevolutionary nationalists from Polish colonies - 575

451 arrested were released and their cases were closed

National composition:
Poles - 9196
Belorussians - 10120
Jews - 1059
Russians - 383
Ukrainians - 181
Germans - 105
Latvians - 122
Lithuanians - 133
Others - 110

The document published in "Political repressions of 20s-50s in Belarus" by V.Adamushko (1994) and reproduced online
https://bydc.info/x-fajl/738-ob-itogakh ... 8-dokument

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1040
Joined: 11 Apr 2016 12:29
Location: Germany

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by Stiltzkin » 27 Aug 2019 20:38

For Stiltzkin the fact is that SU was annexing a lot of territory in 1939-1940. But was it doing it without the consent of Germany so somehow in hostile way toward it as you suggest or in agreement with it that is the question. According to secret part of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact this was done quite in agreement of both parties.
Are you implying that any of the variants legitimize or justify the expansions? The Soviets were repelled multiple times before German-Soviet cooperation, thus Hitler was the initiator and architect of the Division. Germany and Russia advocated 1815 borders, a stance Russia (and sadly various right wing political parties in Germany advocate the same) pursues up to this day.

SloveneLiberal
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: 23 Jul 2018 12:54
Location: Slovenia

Re: Poles Murdered in USSR Pre-WWII

Post by SloveneLiberal » 28 Aug 2019 20:29

Which Weimar German politicians were advocating borders from 1815 with SU? Stresemann? But with Kellog-Briand pact he declined war. Schleicher maybe?

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”