Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1007
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by Gorque » 28 Sep 2019 18:29

A recent news article about a recently released book:
But new research, published in a Dutch book that was released on Sept. 17, to coincide with the 75th anniversary of the Dutch railway strike, indicates that there were more transports than previously thought, and that the Dutch national railway set up special services to facilitate the German-run deportations.

The book, “De Nederlandse Spoorwegen in oorlogstijd 1939-1945,” (“The Dutch Railroad in Wartime, 1939-1945”) attempts to clarify the role of the railroad under German occupation, and to offer a comprehensive accounting of the trains and their impact.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/28/worl ... e=Homepage

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4774
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by wm » 28 Sep 2019 19:19

The Germans controlled the Dutch Railroad, the Germans deported the Jews, the Germans killed them.
So why are the Dutch ashamed today?

Were they aware it wasn't mere deportations? Were they aware the Jews would be killed?
Because as late as the middle of 1944 nobody in Hungary didn't know anything about the Holocaust.

history1
Member
Posts: 3598
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 09:12
Location: Austria

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by history1 » 01 Oct 2019 21:22

wm wrote:
28 Sep 2019 19:19
The Germans controlled the Dutch Railroad, the Germans deported the Jews, the Germans killed them.
So why are the Dutch ashamed today? [...]
ROFL! You´re the biggest ignorant on this planet! Did you just copy the latest PiS-newsletter?
Dutchmen like Poles were collaborateurs and did persecute their fellow countrymen. That´s why they´re ashamed today.

User avatar
Poot
Member
Posts: 339
Joined: 29 Dec 2010 03:38

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by Poot » 01 Oct 2019 23:23

[/quote] You´re the biggest ignorant on this planet! [/quote]

Do you always address people who don't mirror you in this way? How pleasant. How about maintaining a higher standard of conduct, and discussing topics?
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4774
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by wm » 02 Oct 2019 07:45

The question "did they knew" it is a valid one because it seems almost as a rule, nobody knew what was happening, even the Jews in Eastern Europe. One of the main reasons was the fact the Germans skillfully deceived them as to the purpose of the relocations.
Of course, Jews knew that their brethren were mass murdered "somewhere else" but they usually explained it away as something that could have happened in the wild and uncultured East, among savages.

(Mass) deportations of people considered unreliable were the norm during the ww1 and ww2. Almost all belligerents did it.
The Russians mass deported Jews in response to German efforts to trigger an anti-Russian uprising among them. The Soviets did it too and of course on an unprecedented scale. The Americans deported their citizens of Japanese origin. The Austrians arrested lots of people in their occupied territories and sent them to concentration camps. The Poles did in the last days of peace by relocating many Germans to the Eastern parts of the country.

So deportations were something well known and expected. Wholesale murder of entire races or nations weren't, it was unimaginable even to people who were warned about the danger.

btw Without trying to listen to both sides, without trying to understand the events we can't learn anything. A single side view of events isn't history, it's pointless junk.

history1
Member
Posts: 3598
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 09:12
Location: Austria

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by history1 » 02 Oct 2019 13:15

wm wrote:
02 Oct 2019 07:45
[...] The Austrians arrested lots of people in their occupied territories and sent them to concentration camps. The Poles did in the last days of peace by relocating many Germans to the Eastern parts of the country. [...]
Which concentration camps did the Austrians ran and when? And how much are "many Germans" and who are they? I guess you´re talking about the Poles from the German minority? And Lanzmann did us show the evidence that Poles knew what happens with Jews transported to camps by train through their fields.
BTW, what has this all to do with the Dutch railroad? Not much.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4774
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by wm » 02 Oct 2019 22:06

Of course people who lived in close proximity to death camps knew what was going on. What's wrong with that? Was it a crime to know about the Holocaust?

A good example of an Austrian concentration camp is Thalerhof where people were kept on the ground without any shelter during rain and frost, and where in the first months thousands died.

The point is if the people running the Dutch railroad didn't know what was going on they aren't guilty of anything, and that article is an exercise in wookiness.

history1
Member
Posts: 3598
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 09:12
Location: Austria

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by history1 » 03 Oct 2019 07:30

wm wrote:
02 Oct 2019 22:06
Of course people who lived in close proximity to death camps knew what was going on. What's wrong with that? Was it a crime to know about the Holocaust?
Knowing about the death camps isn´t a crime, but easier possible for people living there. Guess why the Nazis did built all extermination camps in the East? And wrong is to make fun about the fate of teh Jews decades later as seen in Claude Lanzmann ´s film.
wm wrote:
02 Oct 2019 22:06
A good example of an Austrian concentration camp is Thalerhof where people were kept on the ground without any shelter during rain and frost, and where in the first months thousands died.
1. You´re talking about the Austro-Hungarian Empire, there was no country AUSTRIA then.
2. Thalerhof wasn´t an concentration camp but an internment camp.
3. The camp existed from September 1914 until May 1917. That people didn´t have shelter is only correct until winter 14/15. See the image of the camp below.
Image
Neither is your claim correct that thousands died within the first months in this camp. You should read less Wikipedia propaganda, my friend. Don´t you know that 2.093 people were burried at the camp cemetary there and all disinterred later?
Source: http://www.bundesheer.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=3979
wm wrote:
02 Oct 2019 22:06
The point is if the people running the Dutch railroad didn't know what was going on they aren't guilty of anything, and that article is an exercise in wookiness.
Who stated that the railroad people didn´t know where the transports ended? And likely they did hear rumors at the final stations what´s going on over there.
It´s easy to condemn nowdays others [and request an apology] and ignore their situation at the time.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1007
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by Gorque » 04 Oct 2019 22:58

The Netherlands, during the conflict, had a civil administration overseen by a Reich Kommissar, Arthur Seyß-Inquart. He used delegates, primarily recruited from his homeland and referred to as the "Danubian Club" or the "Austrian Invasion", for the 11 Dutch provinces and the cities of Amsterdam and Rotterdam. This staff of about 1,600 officials saw to it that they were informed on all procedures taken by the native administration. Even though the appointment of senior civil servants was subject to German approval, this may be the reason for the current Dutch reckoning.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4774
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by wm » 20 Oct 2019 10:36

According to Hague Conventions it was the duty of occupied power to preserve the inner structure of the occupied country as much as possible.
the occupant ... shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.
There was nothing wrong with the native administration and the native police doing what they were supposed to do, e.g., administering the country and maintaining public order.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4774
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by wm » 20 Oct 2019 10:51

history1 wrote:
03 Oct 2019 07:30
Who stated that the railroad people didn´t know where the transports ended?
Who said that the railroad people did know where the transports ended? The Holocaust was a state secret, only a handful of people knew fully what was going on.
That some Jews had been killed didn't mean that Duch Jews would be killed too.

btw most people in Thalerhof died in the first months and 2.093 is still thousands.
Thalerhof was one of ten such camps, maybe more considering it's said the subject is poorly researched.
The "nice" conditions in the camps were later immortalized by the letter in The Good Soldier Schweik:
Dear Aninka,

We are very comfortable here and are all well.
The woman on the bed next to mine has spotted... and there are also some with small . . .
Otherwise, all is well.
We have plenty to eat and collect potato . . . for soup.

“Censored, Imperial & Royal Internment Camp, Steinhof.”

history1
Member
Posts: 3598
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 09:12
Location: Austria

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by history1 » 20 Oct 2019 19:05

wm wrote:
20 Oct 2019 10:51
[...] btw most people in Thalerhof died in the first months and 2.093 is still thousands.
[...]
Your claim is not more correct as before even when you repeat it further 1000 times.
YOU wrote already
where in the first months thousands died.
Better use some time and read the information in the link I posted.
And it´s a difference if ~2100 died in the first months (as you claim) or during the entire existence of the camp.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 6694
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Oct 2019 22:24

I can understand some Dutch embarrassment, but why "shame"?

Sid

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4774
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by wm » 21 Oct 2019 00:13

history1 wrote:
20 Oct 2019 19:05
And it´s a difference if ~2100 died in the first months (as you claim) or during the entire existence of the camp.
Let's try again, the death rate was 4.2 percent per year in Thalerhof, 1.8 percent per year in KL Dachau, 2.5 percent in KL Buchenwald.

And the point was:
Mass deportations of people considered unreliable were the norm during the ww1 and ww2. Almost all belligerents did it.
Who cares if they killed 10 percent of all prisoners in Thalerhof or 15 percent. In both cases, it was a few too many.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1007
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: Dutch Railroad Reckons With Holocaust Shame, 70 Years Later

Post by Gorque » 01 Nov 2019 17:49

Sid Guttridge wrote:
20 Oct 2019 22:24
I can understand some Dutch embarrassment, but why "shame"?

Sid

Hi Sid:

This excerpt from the BBC might help in clarifying:
"The NS complied with the German order to make trains available," Dirk Mulder from the National Westerbork Memorial told Dutch TV last year. "The Germans paid for it and said the NS had to come up with a timetable. And the company went and did it without a word of objection."

NS made an estimated €2.5m in today's terms, Dutch public broadcaster NOS estimates, in transporting Jews from across the Netherlands to the Westerbork camp.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48778715

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”