Waffen-SS and Einsatzkommandos

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Steve,

You ask (presumably of Einsatgruppe A?) "why are there two figures for the Waffen-SS numbers? What does that tell you?"

First, the order of magnitude is similar, (276 v. 340), so it doesn't much change the argument. Nearly 28% of Einsatzgruppe A were still from the Waffen-SS even on the lower figure.

Secondly, why would you be surprised that the two figures differ slightly? One is given for a specific date (16 October 1941) and the other, according to you, covers a wider period, 16 Oct 1941-31 Jan 1942. Given that we know their "work" was stressful and W-SS officers and men were transferred in and out of the Einsatzgruppen, why would some variation be at all surprising? Besides, the Einsatzgruppen were not, apparently, units with fixed establishments.

You may, or may not be "surrounded by many thousands of documents about the Einsatzgruppen after visiting numerous archives across Europe and the USA", we just can't know.

However, I would suggest that, if you wish to take issue with Goldsworthy on the subject, you first get a copy of his book and check his sources. Until you do, you are in no position to contradict what he writes. He gives specific numbers (as detailed above) of officers known to have been cross-transferred between the Einsatzgruppen and Waffen-SS and his sources.

Reading reviews is no substitute for reading the actual book, especially regarding the W-SS, where W-SS groupies pile in to trash anything that might besmirch their adopted heroes. However, if reviews of his book interest you, here is mine: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=140754&p=1230774&h ... y#p1230774 Happy reading!

Cheers,

Sid.

[Carlus]

Hi Sid
Since Stein wrote his book in 1966, he could not have quoted all the other sources and documents available only after USSR dissolution in early 1990s and this could be a serious lack. The same Einsatzgruppen reports were published only in 1989 by Arad and Krakowski and the first complete study on the EG was 1981 Wilhelm's Die Truppe des Weltanschaaungskriegs.

In any case my specific target was Waffen SS within EG C as the origin of my post.
What is strange for me is that a forementioned author (Martin Cüppers) sustains that EG C received a company of Waffen SS in the strenght of 83 men and NCOs. The distribution was really and strangely unequal given that 63 of them were assigned to Sonderkommando 4a.

[steve248]

Sid, you just don't listen. And I will still pass on Goldsworthy despite your review.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Carlus,

I know Stein wrote his book in 1966, which is why I chose that date in the list of four years in my last post to you.

The age of Stein's book doesn't matter, unless he is authoritatively contradicted by later research. As the figures for Einsatzgruppe A are apparently taken from an original document of 1941 that was quoted at the Nuremburg War Crimes Trial in 1946, they seem to be well founded.

Do the later researches you quote contradict Stein in any way?

If so, how?

If not, Stein's 1966 figures, drawn from 1946 and ultimately 1941, still stand by default in 2019.

There is nothing strange that the W-SS in Einsatzgruppe C were unequally distributed. As I pointed out to Steve above, the Einsatzgruppen appear not to have conformed to a single official establishment, as all four are of different strengths. So it would not be surprising if their subordinate units, such as Sonderkommando 4a, also had no standard establishment. These were task-related sub-units whose strengths may have varied on a regular basis depending on the size of the particular task (for which usually read Jewish population) they were engaged in executing at the time.

I am happy to take on board new evidence if it contradicts Stein, but none seems to have surfaced here yet.

The main thing I have learnt here is that there is no doubt that there were sub-units of Waffen-SS men attached to all four Einsatzgruppen. Prior to this, apart from Stein's sourced hard facts on Einsatzgruppe A, I had only seen this asserted for the others.

All that seems to remain is to pin down more precisely how many W-SS men were attached to Einsatzgruppen B, C and D. Given that at least some officers and men seem to have been rotated through, establishing an overall total with precision seems improbable, but it would appear to have been in the order of magnitude of a thousand rather than a hundred, as the partial figures quoted above on this thread total over 500 already:

A - 340
B - ?
C - 83
D - 120

It is as well to remember that these are the minimum totals established here and are almost certainly a significant underestimate.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Sid Guttridge]

Double post

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Steve,

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

If you are not prepared to read available sources when they are given to you, you are effectively disqualifying yourself from making authoritative criticisms of them.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Carlus]

For what concern EG B Cüppers writes on the same footnote that early in fall 1941 the Gruppe received a company in the number of 51 men and NCOs but he may refer to a partial personnel replacement (you can check it out at pp. 420-421)

Curilla, on the other hand, affirms that no longer than in 1942 Sk7a, Sk7b, Ek8 and the EG headquarter's staff had a SS platoon each one.

The 51 men would seem to small if considered as size of a whole company.

In any case the Sipo SD office in Minsk had an uncomplete Waffen SS unit, the so called Gruppe Arlt after its commander or I SS Zug. 11 men in total, commander included. It is possible that the rest of this unit was located further North in the Wilejka Sipo SD Aussenstelle.

Given that all and considering Sipo SD offices where actually be formed by the former mobile Einsatzkommandos, we could state that - with few exceptions - each Kommandos of EG had a number of Waffen SS comprised between 20 men, as lowest figure, and 40 as higher.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Carlus,
That pushes just the known total to over 600.
Cheers,
Sid.