I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 06 Nov 2019 15:40

Sid, that the GC had a window (bulletproof with an iron grid) is indeed a fact, whether the photo is properly described or not. It's not a problem though.

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 06 Nov 2019 19:17

Hi Sid Guttridge!

Thanks for joining. I will kind of switch to talking to you for a moment instead of Sergei, who I am finding it difficult to convince I am not a holocaust denier and a terrible person. I hope he still reads this because I will address some points of his.

So .. I admit maybe my words "crisis of faith" up there misleads people. I mean a crisis about the gas chamber at Sachsenhausen only. And it seemed that this part of the boards ("Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes") was the place to ask about gas chambers. I'm sure lots of people would say that by disputing *any* of the Holocaust you are disputing all of it. But *I* dont think that. And I was hoping to find people here who could at least respect that position.

(I dont even really consider this Station Z chamber to be a part of the Holocaust! Jews were mostly gone from the camp during the time of Station Z! Station Z's facilities just dont have so much to do with that history.)

And .. I guess this is has become important to me for a big reason. >It is a part of my job<. I guide tours in and around Berlin. All kinds of tours, but to Sachsenhausen as well. I have been certified there as a guide. I took people there for years without any problem. It was only after receiving some tough questions that I started to do more research, and as I said .. the more I thought about things, the less I understood.

I *havent* read every piece of literature about the camp, because it is only a part of what I have to concern myself in Berlin (and guiding is only one of the things I do). But I can proudly say that I have been called a "walking encyclopedia" many times by tourists. From The Great Elector's Great Sleigh Ride of 1678, to FLAK tower stats, to Wolf Biermann, to techno history.

There is a literature package to digest (about 120 pgs?) during Sachsenhausen's certification process. I am also just a geeky, fiddly, freely admitted "amateur historian" and so I have many books about *all* German history, and a few ones about Sachsenhausen specifically. I have also spent much time at the camp.

*Also* (and this is very important) .. I am a bit older. And I have visited Sachsenhausen as a teen as far back as 1989, when it was the old DDR memorial. I visited again in the late 90s. Again in the early 00s. And then I probably took my first tour group there around 2004, right when it started changing to it's modern form.

During the time of my experience with the camp I have seen *big* changes from it's old DDR form to it's modern form. Numbers have changed. Things that were reported as truths are no longer. Pictures and exhibits have changed or disappeared. This is understandable, as the DDR exhibit was "problematic" (and that is a part of the issue, right?) But it is also why I dont necessarily agree with "Well if they say it it must be true!"

25 years ago I might have said "It doesnt make sense that they were going to load the prisoners in boats and sink them with dynamite". And I imagine a much younger Sergei Romanov would have also called me a Denier then. But we know now that is boat story is not true.

So this Chamber issue is kind of a "thing" for me. I have stopped going there as I started to have this "crisis". I do respect my job, and history, enough for that.

To Sergei - Again, and for the last time, *I am not a Holocaust Denier*. And it would be nice if you would stop being a dick.

My basic "angle" - The Soviets wanted convenient evidence of Nazi crimes to show people at Sachsenhausen (Berlin's Camp! Lair of the Beast! Tons of visitors! Big prestige piece!) .. but there were none. So they installed them. And then the fakes were destroyed. Major trials were carried out, referencing the Soviet report. And eventually it just becomes very difficult to "undo". Not to mention obviously politically delicate. I completely understand that if even one Camp has a "problem" that Deniers would come out in full force, and use that to say "all of it is untrue". I dont agree.

I realize also, as has been pasted, there have been trials which have revolved around Station Z. I know it is "typical denier tactic" (hi Sergei!) to say things were forced with torture or whatever. I just think that it was in *nobody's* interest to dispute what the Russians had said about Station Z, and it was on the other side of the Wall anyways so how could you research? And if you were a former Sachsenhausen SS, arrested in W Germany in 1958 and already having spent 10 years in Workuta camp under the Soviets, and they give an option of "Here is this version of events. Do you agree or disagree?" If you agree you might see the outside world again. If not ... prison until you die. I think there are plenty of people who would take that option. And I think I can touch on that, but maybe not in this post.

But the primary reasons for my doubt at Sachsenhausen are -

1. It just makes no sense that a bunch of intelligent adult men sat around a table and said "Yes lets put the disguised showers next to the execution trench and under the smokestack. That's better than any other place we can think of." To me this is the "Elephant in the Gas Chamber".
2. There were many falsehoods told about Sachsenhausen after the war by the Soviets (I know .. "typical denier". But how can you say this is not relevant? Untruths were still being told as recently as 15 years ago. "And *some* would say they are maybe still being told ..")
3. It makes no sense that this incredibly important historic relic would be *destroyed*, for the flimsiest of reasons, just as the Cold War against the Fascists was warming up, and only a few years away from when the DDR intended on using the camp to show where the gas chamber had been! (Station Z blown up in 1953 .. camp opens officially as memorial in 1961 with only a blown up Station Z to show.)
4. The camp itself has increasingly "removed focus" from Station Z over the past 20 years.
5. The "uniqueness" of the chamber. I dont believe there was any other chamber built only because the Kommandant wanted it, on his own initiative? But this is the camp where the Chief Inspectorate is! Kaindl is just "improvising"?
6. Schirmer's testimonial was also interesting for me to discover. I will mention it briefly again. I still dont think it can be disregarded as easily as Sergei has done and I will explain why.

So that stuff at least "provokes thought", no?

So that is why I am here. Because there is nowhere else I can go to, to toss this stuff around without ... being labelled a Holocaust Denier. *sigh*. Hi Sergei.

Is it so important? Well it does have actual personal ramifications for me, so .. to me, yes.

So that is the long pre-ramble. Let me get to a bit of Sergei's "meat". There has been a lot said, and a lot of different threads. I'll just touch a few of them. I really do try to be brief. Nobody likes huge waterfalls of text. Though I am guilty of it too.

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 06 Nov 2019 19:19

Sergei .. you discount Schirmer completely. And the reason you give is because the description he gives does not really match the layout of the crematorium at Station Z. I think your entire argument is based on that, correct? His description just doesnt match up with the crematorium. (leaving out the possibility of just mis-remembering things.)

Well -

Isn't it interesting that Schirmer never calls his "workplace" Station Z? He never even actually refers to it as a "crematorium building" either, which it OBVIOUSLY was.

He says this - "Kurz beschrieben war die »Gaskammer« eine Duschbaracke mit 25 Brauseköpfen an der Decke."

A "Duschbaracke"? A "shower barracks with 25 shower heads on the ceiling"?

You DO support the idea that he was actually doing work. And you would say that he was in Station Z, "reinstalling" the equipment around 47/48.



It is actually earlier than that. Here is a picture from the DDR production "Todeslager Sachsenhausen".

https://pasteboard.co/IFrqjCg.jpg

That is Sakowski showing the gas apparatus to the soviets. The film is produced in 46 (47 at latest). So by then they have a gas chamber to show.

(Incidentally .. this film is impossible for me to find. You can imagine I would love to watch it. I'm sure it has all kinds of footage. But .. it is not to be found. There is now only a *book* published in 1948, given the same name, that can be tracked down. Disappointing, right? I wonder where that first film is?)

So we know that by 46-ish there is a chamber to show in that film. (Makes Schirmer's timeline more plausible, right?)

It's also interesting to look at that photo of Sakowski. It seems he is standing on the "wrong side".

Here is the description of Station Z, from Sergei's pastes. [freely translated]

"From the outside, you went down a slight ramp into a space called "the garage". There was an electrical switchboard attached to the wall of the gas chamber. From LEFT through the outside wall a pipe led to an urn-shaped container, that was also attached to the gas chamber."

He is talking about this space https://pasteboard.co/IFrypdr.jpg

And you can see that Sakowski is standing on the opposite corner. That would mean this pipe brought from outside would have to travel across the wall, over the the door to the gas chamber, and then down. It just seems like the worst place to install that thing.

I agree the picture could just be flipped. So it's not such a big deal.

That wall behind him doesnt look like I expect it to look. But also not a big deal.

But the photographer in me cries out! They *could* have taken that picture *including* the big door from the garage to the gas chamber that would be visible if the camera were turned 30 degrees to the left (or right), or "panned out" a bit. That would have been an amazing shot! But I guess they didnt take that photo. Or they didnt want to use that still shot from the film. Which is surely around *somewhere*, right?

Anyways .. So we know that by 46, Sakowski is appearing in that film, showing a gas chamber to the Soviet Commission somewhere at Sachsenhausen.

Man, I wish there were some more still shots from that film! I would love to see the footage of the gas chamber he is showing to the Soviets.

Anyways .. back to Gerhard Schirmer, and his work at the "Duschbaracke".

sharqattac
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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 06 Nov 2019 19:21

So .. why would Schirmer call his workplace a "shower barrack" instead of a crematorium? Why does he mention "big rooms"? "25 showers on the ceiling"?

Is there *another* building around that fits that description?

Yes. Yes there is. And you have pasted the description of it yourself.

It stood about 80 ft from the crematorium building. It doesnt get so much attention at the camp. There is just an outline there now, and a story about the Soviet POWs (According to the Soviets somewhere between 10000 - 18000 of them were executed there by Neck Shot in 1941 in the "Genickschussbaracke"). We dont really know what happened to the building later in the war. We assume it was destroyed by the NVA as well, when the crematorium building was destroyed.

Here it is on the big map at the camp that depicts the buildings in 1944 https://pasteboard.co/IFrP1mb.png

That map doesnt list each individual buildings in that area. It simply calls the whole area "Station Z". But those are definitely a couple of different buildings there beside the crematorium, right?

On the brouchure/map at the camp it doesnt even show those buildings at all!.

https://pasteboard.co/IFrQNkI.png

(I should mention other maps around to the camp do show them. Sometimes. It depends.)

The text there on the brouchure map just says "Burial ground with ashes from victims of the concentration camp" in that space. Ashes were found in the area in 96 and again in 2004. I suppose that makes it sort of hallowed ground now. But no mention of the Genickschussbaracke on that map. No outline of a building. Or .. is the outline of the ash pit the outline of the building? Its all a bit complicated there for some reason.

https://pasteboard.co/IFrSzTv.jpg

That "gravel rectangle" is how they usually indicate former buildings at the camp. But here it is indicating an ash pit.

The text there talks about the murder of the Soviet POWs in 41 which, according to the Soviets, happened in the Genickschussbaracke. So we can assume this is the building that Kaindl talks about in his testimonial.

"Kaindl: Until mid 1943, prisoners were killed by shooting or hanging. For the mass exterminations, we used a special room in the >infirmary<. There was a height gauge and a table with an eye scope. There were also some SS wearing doctor uniforms. There was a hole at the back of the height gauge. While an SS was measuring the height of a prisoner, another one placed his gun in the hole and killed him by shooting in his neck. Behind the height gauge there was another room where we played music in order to cover the noise of the shooting."

What did that building look like? Here is from Sergie's pastes - (I will translate for any non-German speakers).

"The barrack was roughly the size of the prisoner barracks and was divided into 4 rooms after the conversion. From the first room, which was intended as registration- and undressing- room, you came into a room equipped like a medical examination room. It was pretty big. On the ceiling were shower heads. The floor and walls were covered up to halfway with tiles. On a wall, behind which was found a further room, a measuring scale with numbers was painted, like you would use to measure somebody's height."

So .. there you have a "barrack" with big rooms (maybe 8m x 10m?) and with shower heads (maybe 25?). Right by the crematorium at Station Z.

But .. Kaindl says the building for mass executions was in the "infirmary".

The "camp infirmary" is inside the camp, in a completely different spot. The infirmary buildings are interesting as there were large rooms in the basements there too. And showers. They are still there. You can visit them, although there is not much interesting said about them.

But .. whatever specific "infirmary" that Kaindl is talking about, we know that *somewhere* in the camp was another building, as big as a barrack, with showers in a big room that was once supposedly used for the Neck Shots.

But for some reason, the Neck Shot system was moved from this spacious building into a cramped series of 4 small rooms in the crematorium building. And then I guess that former building was used for something else until the end of the war, before finally being destroyed.

So lets re-think things for a moment. Lets consider, for a moment, "Station Z" to be the "infirmary", or "AN infirmary" (of several?)

How would we then regard the other structures around it? Does it make sense to have a crematorium built near an infirmary? I would say yes.

But at the "other" infirmary at the camp we also have the pathology building, with a mortuary "Leichenkeller" (Corpse cellar).

So I guess it makes sense to have a corpse cellar near an infirmary as well, for storing corpses before they are cremated.

Is there anything like that at the "Station Z / infirmary"?

Well .. there is this ...

https://pasteboard.co/IFsziUo.jpg

It is another part of the camp that doesnt get much attention. It is at the side of the "execution trench". People always asked about it.

According to the camp it was an underground storage, where coffins were kept. As well as storage for the Zyklon used in the gassing. That makes sense, since it would be a cool room.

But .. the Zyklon used at Sachsenhausen was not the typical "canned pellets". It was a liquid Zyklon in a small cannister. It is described in Sergei's pastes -

"After Höhn and the accused Böhm met in the change room of the Krema, the already present Kremaprisoner Gärtner pulled a gas cartridge from his pocket that looked like the battery from a large flashlight, and gave it to Höhn."

So .. these "cartridges" were not so big at all. Does it make sense to build that huge expensive underground chamber to store them? Surely it doesnt make sense to build it for the coffins. But why not just have a refrigerated cabinet somewhere and save the cost and time? Or why not use one of the many already existing underground rooms at the camp?

But if we now imagine Station Z as "the infirmary", it *would* make sense to have an underground corpse-cellar there. And then you need to drive down to it in a truck, right? And if you have the driveway "double back" you can halve it's length.

I suppose you can argue that there were *both* kinds of Zyklon used at the camp, with many more "cannisters" than "cartidges". But then I wonder why would the gas chamber not be built to use the "regular" Zyklon B? Why have to make 2 separate kinds of orders for 2 different versions? Sergei says that Kaindl was not "experimenting". So why not use the "tried and true" way, and use the cannistered Zyklon B that was already being stocked at the camp for delousings?

So lets also think about the Crematorium, built there in 1942. It was a big building as you see from the map. And according to the camp the neck shot system was installed immediately there, and taken out of the big, spacious building nearby. But - it was built with that garage, and ramp, and room at the end of the garage. And now if that neck shot room system is installed it means that anything that you brought down into that room (bodies? clothes?) would have to be carried through a really convoluted path.

https://pasteboard.co/IFsNVTR.jpg

So whenever a shooting *wasnt* happening (which was most of the time) and the building was "just" being used as a crematorium .. it would be a royal pain in the ass bringing things in and out of the oven room.

And doesnt it make sense that as you brought stuff into the room at the end of the garage, or loaded stuff out, that there would be a delousing room there? Or a "cleaning room" of some kind?

I realise that there are many mentions in the camp of "executions in the Industriehof", but that is a big place back there. And maybe the executions were taking place somewhere that *wasnt* just on the other side of the wall from the prisoner population.

So ..

Now we have this scenario where that whole part of the camp was an infirmary area of some kind, as referenced by Kaindl. And that would mean that the adjacent "mystery buildings" were also possibly medical buildings of some kind with big rooms and showers. And there was a corpse cellar. And a cremation building, with a garage that entered into a small cleaning / delousing room of some kind, and which would have a nice clear path to the furnace room ... if there were no Neck Shot rooms in the way.

And you have the Soviets "ear-marking" this part of the camp for their story. And then in 45 they bring Schirmer and the others to one of those buildings to re-make it and install the gas chamber and neck shot system. And *that* is the building that Sakowski is showing in the film, of which no further footage, or stills, exists.

But for some reason, people werent convinced. So at some point the story "shifts". The Soviets start promoting the garage room as the gas chamber, and pull out some vague pictures of that room as their proof. As it is the only "shower-like" room *outside* of the main camp that the prisoners wouldnt have been constantly aware of.

This would explain Kaindl referencing the "infirmary", and would also explain the defendants at the Soviet trial of accusing the "Big Business Leaders" of their guilt and thanking the Soviets for their fair treatment. They were scripted.

So that only leaves the testimonials of the camp staff into the 50s and 60s. But anyone who *disputed* the truth as "established in a court of law" by the Soviets could expect lengthy prison terms, and some of them had already spent a good chunk of time at Workuta. They surely wanted to have *some* life to live. So .. they accept the accusations. Or .. they could deny them and never walk as a free man again.


Sergei I am sure you are spitting at the screen now. You can feel free to call me insane. Or just call me dumb. But please dont call me a Holocaust Denier. I am not here with ill-will at all.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 06 Nov 2019 20:58

There's no "crisis" for any rational and informed person.

We know for a fact that the gas chamber and the shooting equipment was installed and used by the Nazis (see the numerous testimonies of eyewitnesses, incl. perpetrators, in the West German courts not known for coercion).
We also know the relevant parts of the building weren't faked by the Soviets, since they left an honest unpublished June 1945 report describing the building in a state untampered by them, with the traces where the equipment used to be, even.

That's where we *start*. Der Ausgangspunkt. The rest merely follows. Non-deniers don't start with wild coulda-woulda-shoulda "argumentation" and don't force the actual evidence to conform to their convoluted conspiracy thinking, exhausting every denial possibility (and mangling the basic facts on the way) before finally accepting the evidence (or not even that).

> I *havent* read every piece of literature about the camp

Nobody says you should have. If you're interested specifically in the gas chamber, you should read specifically about it, e. g. G. Morsch's article "Tötungen durch Giftgas im Konzentrationslager Sachsenhausen" in G. Morsch, B. Perz (Hrsg.), Neue Studien zu nationalsozialistischen Massentötungen durch Giftgas. Historische Bedeutung, technische Entwicklung, revisionistische Leugnung, 2012 (2. Aufl.), S. 260-276. Of course Morsch has more to say elsewhere, but it's a start.

> So this Chamber issue is kind of a "thing" for me.

Yet you don't seem to have done the basic required research.

> My basic "angle"

Is not evidence-based.

> Again, and for the last time, *I am not a Holocaust Denier*. And it would be nice if you would stop being a dick.

I haven't (formally) called you one ... yet. I called you a "denier". After you said you're Station Z denier.
I also did point out that you use Holocaust deniers' favorite arguments. Which you do. A lot. Whether you do it because you're a indeed a Holocaust denier or because you're extremely clueless will have to remain unknown (unless at the end of this exercise you do the "psych! I've had you guys all along haha" thing).

> I just think that it was in *nobody's* interest to dispute what the Russians had said about Station Z

We're not talking about anyone disputing this though.
We're talking about numerous positive statements made in West German courts by people on their own volition.

> and they give an option of "Here is this version of events. Do you agree or disagree?" If you agree you might see the outside world again. If not ... prison until you die

See, typical evidence-free, conspiraloon Holocaust denial argument. The argument that obviously applies outside of the Station Z issue (so let's not pretend that what you're writing has only a local effect; you cannot be too dim not to realize this).

Yet you don't want to be called a denier...

> 1. It just makes no sense that a bunch of intelligent adult men sat around a table and said "Yes lets put the disguised showers next to the execution trench and under the smokestack. That's better than any other place we can think of."

Since nobody claims that they said anything like this, it's a dumb strawman.

> There were many falsehoods told about Sachsenhausen after the war by the Soviets

Which is entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

> It makes no sense that this incredibly important historic relic would be *destroyed*, for the flimsiest of reasons

Mere innuendo, thus irrelevant to the issue at hand whether it makes sense to you (or at all) or not, and possibly the reason was not so flimsy (did it become a place where the NKVD did their ... usual stuff in the Special Camp no. 7, so that the traces had to be destroyed?).

> The camp itself has increasingly "removed focus" from Station Z over the past 20 years.

Yawn.

> The "uniqueness" of the chamber. I dont believe there was any other chamber built only because the Kommandant wanted it, on his own initiative? But this is the camp where the Chief Inspectorate is! Kaindl is just "improvising"?

They were improvising in Auschwitz (Block 11 gassings; Krema I Leichenhalle gassings; Bunkers 1 and 2). Natzweiler (the skeleton collection). Probably Dachau (now that's a really special chamber unlike the others).

Obviously, the alleged uniqueness of a gas chamber is not an argument that it didn't exist.

> Schirmer's testimonial was also interesting for me to discover. I will mention it briefly again. I still dont think it can be disregarded as easily as Sergei has done and I will explain why.

Of course it can be.

> So that stuff at least "provokes thought", no?

No, there's no "there" there in what you posted.

> nowhere else I can go to, to toss this stuff around without ... being labelled a Holocaust Denier.

Actually there are plenty of forums where you could do this without being so labeled... Ahem.

To repeat - you make typical denial arguments, you get compared to them and fall under suspicion yourself. I don't see what's complicated about that.

> Sergei .. you discount Schirmer completely.

Because he told of important things that did not take place.

> And the reason you give is because the description he gives does not really match the layout of the crematorium at Station Z.

No, the main reason is that we know that neither the gas chamber, nor the shooting chamber were structurally (sic; I'm not talking about the equipment) built in the autumn of 1945 because they already existed in this state in the summer of 1945, including the sealed equipment openings.

Then, *additionally*, Schirmer is further shown to be unreliable as to the important details of the building. Which could be explained as a memory fail, for all I care, but the point is, he is not merely unreliable, the key thing he described simply did not happen.

> You DO support the idea that he was actually doing work

Reinstalling the equipment, yes. That's the most plausible explanation of the evidence. That was not a well-known fact, so instead of him independently inventing 100% of this stuff it is more parsimonious to posit that he embellished the truthful core which we know about independently.

> Isn't it interesting that Schirmer never calls his "workplace" Station Z?

The designation doesn't appear in any verdict I examined, so what? It is clear what building he is talking about: "Gaskammer und Erschießungs-Anlage".

In his letter to the Nationalzeitung he mentions the crematorium:

http://vho.org/D/ffh/Zeuge30.html

"Ich mußte zusammen mit anderen im Oktober 1945 auf Befehl des russischen Polit-Offiziers dieses Lagers (Oblt. Kolowatinkow) die Vergasungsanlage und eine betonierte Genickschußanlage in der Vorzone des Lagers einbauen, die vorher nicht bestanden hatten. Es gab vier Verbrennungsöfen (Krematorien) in dieser Vorzone, in der neben normal Verstorbenen vor allem Leichen und Leichenteile von Opfern der alliierten Luftangriffe verbrannt wurden."

> around 47/48

No, I wrote "installed it again in 1946 or 1947".

Actually, upon further reading, I made a small overinterpretive mistake: Morsch connects the reinstallation with a DEFA film to be made in 46/47 - but that doesn't mean that the reinstallation did not happen sooner, so it could have easily happened in late 1945 (note that I did not use this dating against Schirmer, I mentioned it neutrally).

> this film is impossible for me to find. You can imagine I would love to watch it

Well, enjoy the two minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H49UDkk0TyY

> It seems he is standing on the "wrong side".

As you can see from the footage, the photo is mirrored.

> Genickschussbaracke

Never claimed to have been used for gassings. Moreover, this makes short work of one of your main arguments for claiming that SZ was a fake.

> We dont really know what happened to the building later in the war. We assume it was destroyed by the NVA as well

Maybe assume less. Was it there during the liberation at all? Not that it matters, etc.

> Sergei says that Kaindl was not "experimenting"

I did not say that. Here is what I did say:

"It was for killing. If there was any research done, it wasn't scientific."

Practical experimenting is also experimenting but it doesn't require fine-tuned conditions as the scientific experimenting would (hence the point about the sun warming up the chamber and mucking up "experiments" is invalid; we're not talking about a lab here).

> And then in 45 they bring Schirmer and the others to one of those buildings to re-make it and install the gas chamber and neck shot system.

Well, we know it didn't happen in the Station Z, and the gassings were not alleged to have happened in other buildings. I'm afraid I've lost your convoluted train of thought and am not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

Anyway, for the actual established facts see the beginning of this message.

> The Soviets start promoting the garage room as the gas chamber, and pull out some vague pictures of that room as their proof.

The Soviets knew that the Station Z GC was a gas chamber as early as June 1945.

> So that only leaves the testimonials of the camp staff into the 50s and 60s. But anyone who *disputed* the truth as "established in a court of law" by the Soviets could expect lengthy prison terms

Not in West Germany, so you fail again.

> Sergei I am sure you are spitting at the screen now.

You wish.

> But please dont call me a Holocaust Denier.

I'm not doing it to you, you're doing it to yourself.

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by David Thompson » 07 Nov 2019 06:49

Please drop the personal remarks, all around. We don't tolerate them here.

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 07 Nov 2019 21:24

Hi Sergie

You have written some interesting stuff. Really. I do appreciate it. I'll keep this one short.

Its amazing that you could link me to that video. I have wanted to find footage and it was just impossible (for me) to track down anywhere.

I always believed it would help settle my doubts. And .. I guess it has.

+

Why do you think the Genickschussanlage that he is demonstrating to the Soviets there is not the real one?

+

There is absolutely no way that is being filmed in a space no bigger than the shower/gas chamber.

If you havent been to the camp it's hard to convey how small those Neck Shot rooms are. But if you look at our map again you see the "Neck Shot" space is about as long as the length of the gas chamber / shower. So .. about 3.5m. Or "3 windows wide" if you want.

https://pasteboard.co/IFDbNSk.jpg

Look at your YouTube vid where Sakowski shows the process. Look how far he walks from the doorway to the measuring scale.

https://youtu.be/H49UDkk0TyY?t=68

Does that look like 3 windows?

Look at the map again. Look at the distance between the door and the firing slot.

The room that they are in is *bigger*. Maybe .. even closer to 8 meters?

I dont know where they are in that part of the video. But they are NOT standing in the small, cramped rooms of the "Genickschussanlage" in the Crematorium building at Station Z.

And that is very interesting.

Thoughts?

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by Brumbar » 08 Nov 2019 05:47

Sid Guttridge wrote:
06 Nov 2019 11:34
Hi sharqattac,

Have you considered another possibility - that it is the identification in the old Soviet photo that is at fault, not the current building?

In any case, if you still believe that the so-called "Holocaust" occurred, (as I do), aren't you being a little over dramatic about a "crisis of faith"? You are worrying over a detail, not the substance of the event.

Cheers,

Sid.
It’s just another troll...

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 08 Nov 2019 07:20

sharqattac wrote:
07 Nov 2019 21:24
Hi Sergie

You have written some interesting stuff. Really. I do appreciate it. I'll keep this one short.

Its amazing that you could link me to that video. I have wanted to find footage and it was just impossible (for me) to track down anywhere.

I always believed it would help settle my doubts. And .. I guess it has.

+

Why do you think the Genickschussanlage that he is demonstrating to the Soviets there is not the real one?

+

There is absolutely no way that is being filmed in a space no bigger than the shower/gas chamber.

If you havent been to the camp it's hard to convey how small those Neck Shot rooms are. But if you look at our map again you see the "Neck Shot" space is about as long as the length of the gas chamber / shower. So .. about 3.5m. Or "3 windows wide" if you want.

https://pasteboard.co/IFDbNSk.jpg

Look at your YouTube vid where Sakowski shows the process. Look how far he walks from the doorway to the measuring scale.

https://youtu.be/H49UDkk0TyY?t=68

Does that look like 3 windows?

Look at the map again. Look at the distance between the door and the firing slot.

The room that they are in is *bigger*. Maybe .. even closer to 8 meters?

I dont know where they are in that part of the video. But they are NOT standing in the small, cramped rooms of the "Genickschussanlage" in the Crematorium building at Station Z.

And that is very interesting.

Thoughts?
Well sure, they were filming this particular fragment elsewhere. Probably some generic room, unlikely in the SZ at all. But this only goes on to show that they did not have any motive to falsify a part of the actual SZ (and then not use it). Moreover, it's not Schirmer's Betonzelle of 2x4 m either, so if your hypothesis was that the cell was constructed elsewhere, it would mean that this second cell was not used either.

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 08 Nov 2019 12:23

>Moreover, it's not Schirmer's Betonzelle of 2x4 m either, so if your hypothesis was that the cell was constructed elsewhere, it would mean that this second cell was not used either.

Sergei I am afraid it is getting more an more difficult for you to hand-wave this all away.

All it would take is for Schirmer to be off by a meter or so and his testimony could be plausible.

(I would actually hypothesise Schirmer built that wall, but is talking about the room on the OTHER side. He says they built the Durchbruch through to the Vorraum of the Duschbarracke, and that the shooter would stand in that Vorraum and fire *in* to the ErschieBungsraum he had built.)

"Wir bauten namlich an das Bad eine weitere Betonzelle von etwa 4 m x 2 m mit einem Durchbruch zu dem Vorraum des Duschbades. . . Der neue Durchbruch vom Vorraum zum neugebauten sogenannten »ErschieBungsraum« war etwa 20 cm breit. Es sah so aus, als ob der zu erschieKende Delinquent auf dem Auftritt gestanden hatte mit Blick zur Betonwand, und als ob der Schutze im Vorraum einen GenickschuB gezielt hatte ausfuhren konnen."

Either Schirmer didnt know how what he was building was going to be presented, or the Soviets were possibly changing their ideas as they went, and as "believability issues" became apparent. The height scale on the wall in the documentary certainly seems to be covering a larger "hole" behind it in the wall. Maybe even 20cm?

Anyways .. that is all conjecture. What ISNT conjecture is that the Soviets are showing a Neck Shot in that documentary that IS NOT the Neck Shot at the crematorium building. And that is an incredibly significant development in our discussion.

For clarity, here is the amount of distance Sakowski should be walking.

https://pasteboard.co/IFJbIx5.jpg

Your argument now is that they are in some other "generic room" .. where they have made a hole in the back wall to set up a "new" Neck Shot System? And .. umm .. WHY?

I imagine one could still argue that this is the original, first, 1941 neck shot room that Sakowski is showing. But then the question is if this one (that apparently worked really well!) remained through the war, why would Kaindl install a second, much smaller one, that blocks up most of a perfectly useful crematorium building in 42?

And that would mean the Soviets found 2 of them, but didnt say so.

But they also don't mention in their report making, and showing this "different Neck Shot in a different generic room" that you hypothesise.

And that is MAJOR omission on their part and destroys any "infallibility" of their report.

So you either must accept that the Soviets are making significant omissions from their report, or you must accept that the Soviets were converting rooms to look like Neck Shot devices after the war, for some reason.

+

ANd then there is the question .. why would the memorial change the map of that specific area?

Here is the old map that the DDR memorial used to show there. I remember it from my early visits.

https://pasteboard.co/IFIYeyE.jpg

It shows the "paths" the 2 types of prisoners would take through the crematorium building, in red and blue.

You can see the bodies who had been gassed (and presumably the much larger number of corpses that are being brought in trucks for "normal" cremation purposes) were to be brought out of that room back up through the garage (after the truck leaves, I suppose), first down those stairs, then UP the ramp of the garage, around the outside front of the building into the oven room, without a stop in the "mortuary room" where the bodies were "processed". I always thought that this, too, didnt make much sense.

The only other option would be to take bodies through the tight "maze" of the Neck Shot rooms every day, which also didnt make sense.

(Imagine carrying bodies on stretchers/carts having to get around that "tight bend". Look up again at the ruins. Carrying any kind of corpse around that bend would not be easy. So ... they must be taken outside around the front of the building, I guess? Makes sense.)

But if you look at the Neck Shot area you can ALSO see the way from the door to the shooting measuring device is not straight. There the prisoner would have to go around an "edge" to get to the slot.

So .. somehow the DDR was not able to figure the actual layout of that space when they opened it in 61? And it had to be "corrected" when Station Z was re-done. Possibly, I would hypothesise, to better align with this footage that the Memorial was aware was "out there".

But then they would need to alter the actual layout of the rooms too, to match the new layout of the map, right?

I cant really remember how the actual ruins had looked in the DDR exhibit as I didnt care much then. But if the map was different one can assume the ruins matched the map, no? So if the memorial changes the map, the ruins should change to match, no?

But for that .. they would need to be able to work on the ruins under cover so they couldn't be seen. I wonder how they could achieve that?

Possibly by erecting a giant canopy of some kind?

Do you see any signs of work? Maybe I'm crazy. Look at brick colours.

https://pasteboard.co/IFJUvqZ.jpg

(Incidentally, it is reported that the ground under the Station Z crematorium building is "settling" and has damaged and continues to damage those ruins. It is the only place at the camp with this issue.)

But anyways .. we now have THREE versions of the Neck Shot room. The on the Soviets show, the one as the DDR portrayed, and the one as the camp now portrays.

And things are getting very complicated.

+

There is also the question of the gas chamber Sakowski is showing them.

I agree now that they are standing in the garage there at that point. EXCEPT when the film cuts to Sakowski doing his "choking".

They are no longer in "low ramp" of the garage with the door "up some stairs" in the back. And they are also not standing by the other door inside the crematorium, as there are 2 windows that are totally out of place.

So that gassing story is cut together from a few different "locations" around the camp.

And what is that "seat/ledge" in the gas chamber? That not furniture, that is installed as a part of the architecture there.

Why does it not appear in the picture the Soviets took of that room from June 46? Did the Nazis remove that too? "Remove the seat so nobody will suspect this was a standing gassing room"?

Why is there NO mention of that sitting ledge anywhere else? That is a substantial "thing" in a small room where a bunch of people are supposed to be standing.

And why does it match the black seat in the unspecified "chamber" that Sakowski is briefly standing in front of at the end of the video?

The one that almost looks like there are "blood smears" on the back wall?

What is THAT room?
Last edited by sharqattac on 08 Nov 2019 15:20, edited 3 times in total.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 08 Nov 2019 15:10

Sorry, you're too long-winded so I simply skip what you wrote beyond the first couple of paras. Learn to organize your thoughts. Or at least write down your conclusions in short form before you write the rest of your novel. Then your stuff may be read.

That the documentary shows another room is the only useful development from this otherwise useless convo but it's a strictly secondary one to the issue at hand, since it doesn't touch upon the authenticity of the Station Z execution rooms at all.

So, to sum up.

What is not in question:

- there was a GC and a shooting room in the Station Z since this is confirmed by numerous unimpeachable witnesses in West German courts and nothing contradicts this;

- the rooms structurally existed in June 1945, see the unpublished Soviet report honestly describing the state without the equipment;

- whether Schirmer did or did not do whatever wall construction work wherever, does not concern the authenticity of the original shooting room and the gas chamber.

What remains to be clarified:

- why the GSA was not filmed in the original place; the simplest explanation is that, contrary to the assumption of the researchers, the equipment was not reinstalled in the SZ; at that time it was the Special Camp no. 7, the whole filming process had to be approved by the NKVD, which also obviously was looking on and controlling it if need be (eg the inmates were locked in the barracks during the filming), and it's possible that at that time the crematorium was used for the usual NKVD stuff, like executions and torture, so there might have been reasons not to let the film crew film the premises or tamper with the structures (this would also explain the subsequent demolition).

- if true, this also makes it unlikely the filming took place in some subsequently modified room inside the SZ;

- same then applies to the GC part of the film; quite possibly the whole filming took place in another building.

Since it was a propaganda film rather than a historical one, they likely didn't care much about such details (and anyway probably had no choice if the NKVD said "no, here you can't film").

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 08 Nov 2019 15:42

>Sorry, you're too long-winded so I simply skip what you wrote beyond the first couple of paras. Learn to organize your thoughts.

Pretty saucy from someone who copy-pastes waterfalls of testimonials. But ok.

So it seems that you are now putting forth the theory that the Neck Shot and Gas Chamber they are showing in the doc was a fake.

And so that would mean that Sakowski is being completely dishonest in that film, yes?

And it would also mean that Schirmer is not to be discounted? Correct?

+

So I will try to be succinct.

What is that sitting ledge in the gas chamber Sakowski shows? Why does it not appear in the Soviet photo from June?

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 08 Nov 2019 15:50

Actually dont worry about that since I know how you will answer.

"That is not the gas chamber in the Crema of Station Z".

Which is kind of funny since it kind of means we have now traded places. Now you are denying.

Your position has certainly changed through this. From "Soviet infallibility" to "Well sure they were building fake gas chambers and neck shot devices for propaganda)".

So my different question would be, why did the map of the Neck Shot room change from DDR times to now?

Map then - https://pasteboard.co/IFIYeyE.jpg

Map now - https://pasteboard.co/IFKoA40.jpg

Look at the area between Neck Shot Slot and door.
Last edited by sharqattac on 08 Nov 2019 16:01, edited 2 times in total.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 08 Nov 2019 15:59

Yeah, source materials are a long read; maybe you'll eventually discover this fact for yourself when you start doing research.

---

Why dishonest, unless he was showing the procedure incorrectly?

---

I've never claimed Soviet infallibility so I would be grateful if you stop lying about my claims.

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Re: I have had a "crisis of faith" at Sachsenhausen memorial site. Help me out?

Post by sharqattac » 08 Nov 2019 16:40

(I made an edit to my past post but I missed you)

>maybe you'll eventually discover this fact for yourself when you start doing research.

Maybe you should visit the camp?


>I've never claimed Soviet infallibility so I would be grateful if you stop lying about my claims.

But you were completely discounting Schirmer. And now you are saying that "Yes the Soviets probably built some fake installations".


So my different question would be, why did the map of the Neck Shot room change from DDR times to now?

Map then - https://pasteboard.co/IFIYeyE.jpg

Map now - https://pasteboard.co/IFKoA40.jpg

Look at the area between Neck Shot Slot and door.

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