Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
von thoma
Member
Posts: 4705
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 03:40
Location: Spain

Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by von thoma » 22 Nov 2019 21:29

An interesting article of digital UK dailymail ;

REVEALED: The two Nazi officers suspected of being tortured to death by the British in a Kensington mansion
after 70 year battle to keep their names secret - and how one was given a false identity on his death certificate

* SS Lieutenant Helmut Tanzmann and Gestapo chief Hans Ziegler identified after painstaking analysis
* Nazi officers subjected to harsh questions over war crimes at the secret London Cage interrogation facility
* Captives alleged physical beatings, starvation and sleep deprivation - as well as threats of ‘electrical devices’
* Intelligence services have refused to release the names or files of the men they claim ‘committed suicide’
* Now it can be disclosed that one was issued with a false death certificate deepening mystery over his demise


The whole story ; https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... named.html
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4320
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by OpanaPointer » 22 Nov 2019 21:31

You're using the National Inquirer as a source?
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

User avatar
von thoma
Member
Posts: 4705
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 03:40
Location: Spain

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by von thoma » 22 Nov 2019 21:33

I am doubtful with this whole story....
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "

sekudlyda
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: 04 Nov 2019 15:11
Location: Virginia

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by sekudlyda » 25 Nov 2019 17:04

This reminds me of a book I read last year by Helen Fry entitled, "The London Cage." It contained unsubstantiated allegations of prisoner abuse by the British secret service toward Nazi war criminals held in the London interrogation center after the war. Ms. Fry often used the word, "rumors" throughout her book in describing the alleged abuse of SS war criminals by their British captors. The problem is rumors are just unsubstantiated claims unless proven otherwise.

I wrote to Ms. Fry about her use of the word, "rumors" and asked if she had evidence to back up her claims. Not surprisingly, I never heard back from her. Her book reminded me of another entitled "The High Cost of Vengeance" by the late Freda Utley, published in 1949. It, too, contained shocking revelations of torture used by U.S Army personnel on Nazi war criminals in the American zone of occupied Germany. Objective assessments of her book revealed it to be full of simple inaccuracies to outright lies.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4320
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by OpanaPointer » 25 Nov 2019 18:17

And there's the whole "Other Losses" fiasco...
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

steve248
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 20:53
Location: St Albans, England

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by steve248 » 28 Nov 2019 19:12

Sensational rubbish by the Daily Mail again.
Tanzmann and Ziegler were not the only deaths in custody of the British (or the French, the Americans, the Dutch, the West German police) of suspected war criminals. Simply because they were under interrogation probably meant the men involved when faced with crimes they committed decided on their own way out. Ziegler's interrogations are available at The National Archives, Kew/UK. But not those of Tanzmann.
That answer can be answered by Tanzmann's use of false papers in the name of Hans Eric(h) Koch with a naval career, issued to him in Norway before the capitulation. Similar papers were issued to a number of his subordinates. All of them boarded a U-boat they believed could get them back to Germany but following the capitulation whilst at sea, ordered to dock at a UK port. They were all arrested and treated as POWs from the German Navy and sent to a POW camp in Britain. It was almost a year before Tanzmann and the others were uncovered for what they were. Tanzmann was never interrogated, or at least an interrogation report is not to be found, and no doubt felt he did not want to be extradited in Poland or the USSR. He may have been threatened with this to make sure he talked but he decided on an alternative way. Not very sensational or unique.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4320
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by OpanaPointer » 28 Nov 2019 20:09

A fiendish torture would be to make them read the Daily Fail.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1961
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Nov 2019 08:53

Daily Fail, which can invent a story out of thin air, and can cover even factual news with a slimy layer of sensationalism, can be ignored, but their source is a serious historian whose book about the London Cage I plan to read some time. So a discussion of that book would be quite welcome.

(Oh, and the story is about two years old, why post it now?)

corbulo
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: 17 Oct 2019 16:06
Location: London

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by corbulo » 29 Nov 2019 16:41

sekudlyda wrote:
25 Nov 2019 17:04
This reminds me of a book I read last year by Helen Fry entitled, "The London Cage." It contained unsubstantiated allegations of prisoner abuse by the British secret service toward Nazi war criminals held in the London interrogation center after the war. Ms. Fry often used the word, "rumors" throughout her book in describing the alleged abuse of SS war criminals by their British captors. The problem is rumors are just unsubstantiated claims unless proven otherwise.

I wrote to Ms. Fry about her use of the word, "rumors" and asked if she had evidence to back up her claims. Not surprisingly, I never heard back from her. Her book reminded me of another entitled "The High Cost of Vengeance" by the late Freda Utley, published in 1949. It, too, contained shocking revelations of torture used by U.S Army personnel on Nazi war criminals in the American zone of occupied Germany. Objective assessments of her book revealed it to be full of simple inaccuracies to outright lies.
Shock. Horror. Security services using illegal actions during interrogations. It's one thing to doubt rumours, another to deny their feasibility...

AxelFaxel
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: 24 May 2018 16:00
Location: Germany

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by AxelFaxel » 18 Dec 2019 15:48

Dear all,
regardless the quality of the press articles mentioned - in any case, the story of Tanzmann and the "Kommando zbV 21" unit he led on the way from the KdS in Montpellier / France to the KdS Narvik in Norway in 1944 is highly interesting. Has been mentioned a couple of times here in the Forum. There are actually 2 PWIS reports (No. 43 and 51) from Norway briefly describing the case, and I'm more than happy to share a copy.

Question to the audience: PWIS report 43 seems to have an "Appendix C" with a list of the members of the Kommando Tanzmann, but this appendix was excluded at least in the files I got from Norway. They said they don't have it any more (or it's still classified). It might however be available in the Nat'l Archive in Kew, London and / or in the related archives in France. So, in case someone has got that particular list, please let me know.

I'm doing some private research around this topic, I believe (not yet 100% sure) that my late grandfather was member of that unit. I do have a draft long-list of names of those members, but it's more a compilation and I'd like to do some cross-check with against more official sources

Thx all for contributing

Axel

steve248
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 20:53
Location: St Albans, England

Re: Nazis 'secretly tortured to death' in Britain

Post by steve248 » 28 Dec 2019 21:01

The PWIS 43 & 51 interrogation reports are also available at UK National Archives and US National Archives.
The list of zbV 21 Kommando members is in UK National Archives, reference WO 311/61.
Can not confirm who is listed as out of the country for the next 10 days.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”