Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

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Orlov
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Orlov » 08 Dec 2020 11:16

VanillaNuns - This is the same article.

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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by michael mills » 12 Dec 2020 11:40

Ad 1. Probably first mentioned by H.-P. Klausch, Antifaschisten in SS-Uniform. Schicksal und Widerstand der deutschen politischen KZ-Häftlingen Zuchthaus- und Wehrmachtsgefangenen in der SS- Sonderformation Dirlewanger, Bremen, 1993, p. 314-316 (testimonies of Oberleutnant Luftwaffe and DRK sister)
The above is something very significant that is often overlooked in the usual descriptions one reads about the Dirlewanger Special Formation, which is routinely portrayed as consisting entirely of violent criminals such as murderers and rapists. The fact is that it was a penal unit, the members of which were regarded as totally expendable, and therefore was used for what were essentially suicide missions, as is clearly shown by the unusually high casualties it suffered in its various engagements.

As a penal unit, it was filled with men who had committed both military and civilian offences. Some of those men had certainly committed crimes of violence for which they were being punished, but others were political prisoners, men who were opponents of the National Socialist regime, and were being punished by being sent to a unit where they would be used as cannon fodder. The crucial issue is that it is obvious that those members of the Dirlewanger Special Formation who were political prisoners can hardly have been motivated by a fanatical belief in National Socialism, or by a hatred for the enemies of National Socialist Germany, or by a criminal or psychopathic personality.

What then was the motivation for the well-known atrocities committed by the men of the Dirlewanger Special Formation, atrocities that exceed those of normal Waffen-SS units in their sheer wanton brutality? I tend to the view that the main thing driving those men was not so much hatred as sheer despair at the knowledge that they were being used as cannon fodder, and that it was expected of them that they would be killed in action. That sort of despair and hopelessness can easily cause men to lash out in rage and anger, to express their despair at their unavoidable fate by inflicting suffering on others.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Sergey Romanov » 13 Dec 2020 22:16

Dirlewanger to an SS Investigator on Poisoning of Jews
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -jews.html

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Hans1906
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Hans1906 » 14 Dec 2020 19:37

@ Sergey Romanov,

another posting, in a reference to a more than questionable internet blog.

What is the reason for all this?

Hans1906
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

michael mills
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by michael mills » 14 Dec 2020 23:06

Is there any reason to believe that the story told by Dirlewanger during his interrogation by an SS court on 1 September 1942 was true?

By that date, all three of the extermination camps under Globocnik's command were in full operation, and the procedure there was similar to that described by Dirlewanger, something that he might well have found out about from the rumours that were flying around within SS circles and even outside them. It seems to me entirely possible that he made up the story about having been given an order by Globocnik to kill Jews, in order to provide to provide "legal" cover for killings that he had carried out on his own initiative, and which were regarded by the SS judicial authorities as "illegal".

Is there any record of a confirmation by Globocnik that he gave such an order to Dirlewanger? Is there any record of a confirmation from Streibel that he collected the clothes of executed Jews from Dirlewanger and took them to the Trawniki camp?

As for Dirlewanger's being investigated for killings that were "illegal", ie illegal according to specifically SS regulations, I am reminded of the prosecution by an SS court of a Waffen-SS man in 1941 for having participated in the shooting of a group of Jews in the occupied Soviet Union on his own volition, without having been given permission to do so.

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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Herr Bubikopf » 15 Dec 2020 16:27

"Men such as Brigadeführer Oskar Dirlewanger were still free, working and planning for that great day .They'd never captured HIM. The major general was too wily, too sly an old poacher to be trapped in the nets of the fools who'd been hunting him since the collapse in 1945.."


"Time of reckoning" von Walter Wager (1977).

:lol: :wink:

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Sergey Romanov » 16 Dec 2020 09:25

Hans1906 wrote:
14 Dec 2020 19:37
@ Sergey Romanov,

another posting, in a reference to a more than questionable internet blog.

What is the reason for all this?

Hans1906
Holocaust deniers don't like this blog indeed, but their opinions don't count here, so they should relax. The dog barks but the caravan goes on.

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Hans1906
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Hans1906 » 16 Dec 2020 17:12

Sergey, here is the link:

"ARC list of banned denial sites and hate blogs:" http://www.deathcamps.org/bannedblogs.html (Link Nr. 3 on the list)

Homepage: http://www.deathcamps.org

Hans1906

P.S. Very careful using the term "Holocaust Denier" in your last posting, because that's where the fun ends.
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Sergey Romanov » 16 Dec 2020 18:22

Hans1906 wrote:
16 Dec 2020 17:12
Sergey, here is the link:

"ARC list of banned denial sites and hate blogs:" http://www.deathcamps.org/bannedblogs.html (Link Nr. 3 on the list)

Homepage: http://www.deathcamps.org

Hans1906

P.S. Very careful using the term "Holocaust Denier" in your last posting, because that's where the fun ends.
But that's a smear notice by the people whom we exposed as putting fakes on that site. Are you now of the same opinion as Holocaust deniers and fake-peddlers?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... fakes.html

(More on the sociopaths behind the smear.)

If not, why would you repeat an obvious lie about our blog, founded by a notable scholar and researcher of Holocaust denial Dr. Nicholas Terry

https://www.routledge.com/Holocaust-and ... 0367024253

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ust-denial

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... f0a3d5c594

being unreliable, when it is relied on, among others, by the Auschwitz Museum

https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Fro ... ery&f=live

and Deborah Lipstadt/Emory University's anti-denial website?

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... ogspot.com

PS: don't act like one, funny guy.

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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Hans1906 » 16 Dec 2020 18:28

Sergey, I leave the decision about all this to the admins and moderators on this forum, they for sure will know better, what belongs,
and what does not belong in this forum.

Hans1906
Last edited by Hans1906 on 16 Dec 2020 18:31, edited 1 time in total.
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Sergey Romanov » 16 Dec 2020 18:31

A comment with an insulting emoj was removed.

Keep the thread nice and stick to topic, if you have problems with this Read the rules of AHF .

/Georg

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Hans1906
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Hans1906 » 17 Dec 2020 02:43

Sergey, If you think you can insinuate that I am somehow right, then you are on the wrong track.

My grandfather was an officer, and a National Socialist, whether the man was a convinced "Nazi" is another matter.
It is not for me to judge all this, please, as I was only born in the year 1956.

Certainly the man regretted many things after 1945, without question, and the man wrote a lot about it in later years.
Whether he regretted his former career, I think not, probably all this was not yet an issue in his lifetime, in the circle of his former comrades and friends.

Does that make me a "Holocaust denier"?

The father of our friend Hans-Jürgen lost both legs as a tank soldier in the last days of the war.
When the severely wounded soldier in a hospital train finally arrived home, on the same day his then wife ran away from him, she could not bear the sight.
In later years the good man found a second wife, and was able to father four healthy children, the second oldest son being my childhood friend Hans-Jürgen.

The old man was very strong, a tough man, even without legs, something good has come out of all his children, and the memory of the father is still present here in the village.
The man liked to drink a glass of beer sometimes, and when he was in the mood, he would sing the old songs, very often.
He died in his bed, sheltered by his beloved wife, very quietly, alone.

His name was Johann "Jan" Reil, the neighbor next door with no legs, I still imagine the very strong man before my very eyes, a hero, no.
Growing up without a father myself, the man was always like a father to me, this is what I remember.

Hans1906
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

michael mills
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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by michael mills » 17 Dec 2020 04:48

Hans,

I would recommend that you not continue this exchange with Sergei Romanov. While he is usually a very good source of information, if ever you disagree with him on any issue, he can become very aggressive and start slinging around accusations of "holocaust denial", something he seems to be obsessed with. Best to just let it go.

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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by Sergey Romanov » 17 Dec 2020 07:05

Hans, I was not the one who started with various insinuations.

---

As for Michael Mills, all one needs to know about him is that he ardently supported the Holocaust denier David Irving during his trial against Deborah Lipstadt in 2000.

A link to Irving's site follows, at the link an article from The Forward.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/trial/Forward100300.html
An Australian civil servant is advising provocateur David Irving in his Holocaust-denial libel suit against Emory University professor Deborah Lipstadt. Michael Mills, an asset manager for the Department of Finance and Administration at Canberra, provided Mr. Irving with 32 pages of detailed questions for his cross-examination last month of an expert witness for Ms. Lipstadt, Peter Longerich, in the trial under way in London. Mr. Mills is a regular participant in an on-line Holocaust discussion group for academics, where is identified by his Australian governmental e-mail address.

Mr. Mills's briefing -- which formed the basis for Mr. Irving's attack on a 134-page report by Mr. Longerich, a professor at the University of London -- is a further sign of support from Down Under for Mr. Irving, who has been refused an Australian entry visa since 1993...

"I find it extremely disquieting," the president of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, Nina Bassat, said of Mr. Mills's role in the trial. "One assumes that government policy is developed with a historic impartiality and that people administering government policy come to it without bias."

"Any implication that the government is a vehicle of any sort for this is unspeakable and outrageous," said the chairman of the governing board of the World Jewish Congress, Isi Leibler. "I think the government should reprimand him forthwith." Mr. Leibler is a former head of the Australian Jewish community.

Mr. Mills's unofficial briefs examine paragraph by paragraph Mr. Longerich's argument that Hitler knew about the mass murder of the Jews, which, the historian writes, "followed a standardised pattern, were centrally directed and expressed the policy of the National Socialist regime." Mr. Irving acknowledged the influence of Mr. Mills in the on-line diary he maintains on his web site.

"I cross examine somewhat better all afternoon, on the basis of the brief provided by Michael [...]. an expert, of Australia," Mr. Irving wrote. "A very useful brief it is too, and it helps to narrow down the issues, though it lengthens the cross-examination."

[...]

Mr. Mills has been banned from the on-line Holocaust discussion forum at About.com. The guide to the About.com Holocaust site, Jen Rosenberg, told the Forward she removes messages from individuals who espouse Holocaust denial or "revisionism" and blocks repeat offenders from participating in its forum.

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Re: Fate of Oskar Dirlewanger

Post by sekudlyda » 18 Dec 2020 14:54

A post violating the rules of AHF was deleted

/Georg

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