Romania denying Holocaust?

[Paul3747]

For more on Romania and the holocaust see Eichmann in Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt, pages 190-193.

Amongst other things she claims that ".... Romania was the most anti-Semetic country in prewar Europe" and that in 1940 Romania's "anti-Jewish legislation was the severest in Europe, Germany not excluded".

She quotes Hitler as saying to Goebbels in August 1941 that "a man like Antonescu proceeds in a far more radical fashion than we have done up the present" (in regard to "Jewish question")

She claims also that the Romanians had managed to kill "close to three hundred thousand of their Jews mostly without any German help".

Also "In Odessa alone, Rumanian soldiers were responsible for the massacre of sixty thousand people"

She also states that Rumanian Concentration camps were "more elaborate and more atrocious than anything we know of in Germany"

Interesting stuff, never knew anything about Romanias persercution of the Jews before! Will try and find sources and supporting evidence for above claims.

[dragos]

The writtings and statements about the Jews in Romania during 1940-1944 are quite antithetical.

Favorable statements for Romania were made by: Moshe Carmilly-Weinberger, Israel Gutman, Jean Ancel and Efraim Ofir of Yad Vashem institute, Alexandru Safran - Romanian rabbi, Arie Steinberg of Haifa University, Randolf Braham - New York University.

According to Theodore Fischer's work for the Paris peace conference of 1946, on the territory of Romania (excluding Bessarabia and North-Western Transylvania, the later under Hungarian administration), were 5,278 Jewish victims.

[Victor]

Paul, you may find these older threads of some interest:

Holocaust in Romania
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=2093

Romania and the Holocaust
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14789

[Paul3747]

Paul, you may find these older threads of some interest:

Holocaust in Romania
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=2093

Romania and the Holocaust
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14789

Thanks Victor, will check out the links.

[michael mills]

Dragos wrote:

According to Theodore Fischer's work for the Paris peace conference of 1946, on the territory of Romania (excluding Bessarabia and North-Western Transylvania, the later under Hungarian administration), were 5,278 Jewish victims.

The above statement conceals more than it reveals.

The "devil in the detail" is in the phrase "excluding Bessarabia". It is a bit like saying that the number of Jews killed by Germany, excluding Europe, was some piddling number.

The fact is that after Bessarabia and North Bukovina, which had previously been Romanian territory but had been seized by the Soviet Union in July 1940, had been reconquered from the Soviet Union, the Romanian Army first carried out a number of pogroms against the Jews of those areas, and then, beginning in October 1941, expelled them across the Dniester into Transnistria, where they were held in concentration camps under Romanian control and more than half of them died.

So the statement that only 5,278 Jews died "on Romanian territory" "excluding Bessarabia" is true but meaningless. The Jews died by the tens of thousands in Transnistria, which had never been Romanian territory.

One could make a comparison with Germany. Almost none of the millions of Jews killed by Germany died on original German territory, excluding the territory annexed from Poland.

But Arendt's figures are an exaggeration. The number of Romanian Jews whose deaths are attributable to the actions of the Romanian Government was a bit over 100,000; they were almost all Jews from Bessarabia and Bukovina.

Something like 130,000 Jews from North Transylvania died; but that territory had been annexed by Hungary, and its jews were caught up in the Hungarian deportation of 1944.

The Romanian Government did distinguish between the 250,000 Jews of the Regat (the territory of Romanian before the First World War) and the 250,000 Jews of Bessarabia and Bukovina. It regarded the latter as Communist sympathisers and collaborators with the Soviet occupation 1940-41; that is why it deported them to Transnistria.

The Jews of the Regat were treated very badly by the Romanian Government, but their deportation was never considered.

[dragos]

Dragos wrote:

According to Theodore Fischer's work for the Paris peace conference of 1946, on the territory of Romania (excluding Bessarabia and North-Western Transylvania, the later under Hungarian administration), were 5,278 Jewish victims.

The above statement conceals more than it reveals.

The "devil in the detail" is in the phrase "excluding Bessarabia". It is a bit like saying that the number of Jews killed by Germany, excluding Europe, was some piddling number.

My intention was not to cover the treatement of Jews in Bessarabia and Transdnestra, which deserves a separate chapter, but only to advance a figure for a specific region.

[Victor]

Something like 130,000 Jews from North Transylvania died; but that territory had been annexed by Hungary, and its jews were caught up in the Hungarian deportation of 1944.

According to Sabin Manuila and Wilhelm Filderman, The Jewish population in Romania during World War II, Iasi, 1994 (editors Kurt Treptow and Larry Watts) some 58,000 out of 151,125 Jews from NW Transylvania (which was under Hungarian administration) survived. That means 90,295 died.

According to Remember. 40 de ani de la masacrarea evreilor din Ardealul de Nord sub ocupatie hortysta, Federatia Comunitatilor Evreiesti din RS Romania, Bucharest 1985 some 41,650 survived. That means 110,530 dead.

This second source was published during the Communist days of Romania, when Ceausescu was engaged in a propaganda war with Hungary. I would give more credit to the first source.

The Jews of the Regat were treated very badly by the Romanian Government, but their deportation was never considered.

That was true in the first years of the war, but as the Axis was battered on all fronts, many of the laws weren't fully applied, despite the government's efforts even in early 1944 and the so-called Romanization process of the economy was far from complete. Surprisingly, the Jews from the Old Kingdom wore the Star of David only for a short while in 1941.

[GregK]

I agree.....holocaust era atrocities are controversial for many countries.

Jewish groups in Ukraine and Lithuania are arguing with nationalists over the wordings on memorials. Perhaps Ukraine and Lithuanina are downplaying local involvement in holocaust.

Poland......Situation is highlighted by Jawane (sp) pogrom and accusations and counter accusations about how many were killed and by whom. Polish groups counter the book Neighbors and cite 200 murders by Germans not 1,200 murders by local Poles.

Hungary....I dont know if the Hungarian governemt ever acknowledged local invovlement in the holocasut (Arrow Cross etc.) or if they just blame it all on the Germans.

The Jews in Poland often collaborated with the Soviet communists against their Polish neighbours. I am far from justifying that crime but the reasons behind that and other similar atrocities were more complex than you think. [/quote]

[Obserwator]

Jews in Poland often collaborated with the Soviet communists against their Polish neighbours

Jewish partisants in eastern Poland patricipated in massacres of Poles-look up Koniuchy and Naliboki as examples of such activites.

[michael mills]

Victor wrote:

According to Sabin Manuila and Wilhelm Filderman, The Jewish population in Romania during World War II, Iasi, 1994 (editors Kurt Treptow and Larry Watts) some 58,000 out of 151,125 Jews from NW Transylvania (which was under Hungarian administration) survived. That means 90,295 died.

According to Remember. 40 de ani de la masacrarea evreilor din Ardealul de Nord sub ocupatie hortysta, Federatia Comunitatilor Evreiesti din RS Romania, Bucharest 1985 some 41,650 survived. That means 110,530 dead.

Victor,

I am totally prepared to accept the figure of around 90,000 Jewish dead from North Transylvania annexed by Hungary.

I knew that there were around 150,000 jews in North Transylvania, and that there were at least 20,000 survivors, but I was not sure of the exact number, so I guesstimated the figure of 130,000 dead, since I did not want anyone to accuse me of "minimising the Holocaust" (as many of the more intemperate members of this Forum have often done).

So I thank you for informing me of the figure in the Manuila/Filderman book. I general I believe that there has been a degree of exaggeration of the numbers of Jewish dead in the Second World War, up to a possible 30% exaggeration.

When I check the figures I recorded from the book "Diemnsion des Völkermords", I find the following data relating to North Transylvania in the chapter on Romania:

Jewish population in 1941: 151,125
minus those deported in 1944: 137,125
= those not deported: 14,000

plus survivors of deportation: 44,000

= total survivors: 58,000

Total victims: 90,295

These are obviously the same as the Manuila/Filderman figures, and must come from the same source.

My figure of 130,000 (which I vaguely had in my memory) actually referred to the number of deportees. It appears that about two-thirds of the deportees perished and one-third survived to return.

On the other hand, the chapter on Hungary in the same book gives the total number of jews in North Transylvania as 164,000.

[Brotherhood of the Cross]

The Jews in Poland often collaborated with the Soviet communists ... but the reasons behind that and other similar atrocities were more complex

Try and explain that to an average non-European who's entire opinion is build on what originates from Hollywood.

The Jews in Romania were also deeply involved in the Communist movement. Before 1944 as well as after that, in the critical period of implementing the Communism. But blaming ALL of them for that, is obviously an extreme thing to do. Only some smart-arses were involved in dubious political games and business arrangements.
When things turned ugly that "elite" managed to save their skin and the general hysteria and resentments were directed to the average (and more accessible) Jew.

However, we should note that this strange minority had a unic (general) approach in their efforts to preserve their identity. The ideal country where such a minority can keep their ways and avoid assimilation by the majority is one that lacks roots, nationalism and promotes "multiculturalism" etc. (Communism in its early form promoted a perverted form of "multiculturalism" - all nations equal under the same ideals/flag/signs and all that crap)
***
I remember taking part to a meeting in Australia and one of the speakers said: "Hi, my name is Mr. X, I am a 50y old 'professional' and I also have to tell you that I am a Jew..." and then a strategic silent break followed while he looked at the audience looking for a reactions.
And everyone stared at him and didn't get it because for them that meant nothing. 'Err... So what, what's the catch?' asked innocently a guy sitting next to me. [Note: 95% of the audience were genuine ozzies.]

On the other hand in a country soaked in nationalism (whether fascist or communist) the best approach is to keep a low profile, try not to upset anyone, make powerful friends who can protect you, strategic alliances and so on.
As harsh as it may sound, the Jew survival tactics (as an ethnic identity) makes them prone to the status of 'scape-goat' when the things turn ugly (political-economic crisis) and generalized hysteria surfaces.