How the leadership viewed the holocaust

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Loog
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How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#1

Post by Loog » 19 Jul 2020, 23:21

We know in public speeches Nazi leaders used 'code words' or special vocabulary, especially when regards to the holocaust.

This applies to internal documents as well, such as the Korherr report. Another interesting example is the use of vocab by Aktion 1005 unit http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 05_11.html

Certainly spies were a concern and probably code breakers as well, do we know if coded documents use any special vocabulary? The one I am familiar with, Hoefle telegram, refrains from use of descriptive language in general. I also just learned of these, which also are barebone. [http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s-and.html

But the real thing I'm interested in is secrecy within the the Nazi leadership itself. As main executors of the holocaust, how much did the SS need to involve other departments? From the Nuremberg testimonies (which are obviously unreliable) you get the picture that ONLY the SS knew and they kept this from everyone else. In the face of alarming 'atrocity reports' from the allies, Nuremberg defendants vividly describe extravagant journeys trying to get to the bottom of the issue.
I asked Heinrich Himmler for this special permission. He said that he would urge me not to go to the camp. Again some time passed. On 7 February 1944 I succeeded in being received by Adolf Hitler personally-I might add that throughout the war he received me three times only. In the presence of Bormann I put the question to him: "My Fuehrer, rumors about the extermination of the Jews will not be silenced. They are heard everywhere. No one is allowed in anywhere. Once I paid a surprise visit to Auschwitz in order to see the camp, but I was told that there was an epidemic in the camp and my car was diverted before I got there. Tell me, My Fuehrer, is there anything in it?" The Fuehrer said, "You can very well imagine that there are executions going on-of insurgents. Apart from that I do not know anything. Why don't you speak to Heinrich Himmler about it?" And I said. "Well, Himmler made a speech to us in Krakow and declared in front of all the people whom I had officially called to the meeting that these rumors about the systematic extermination of the Jews were false; the Jews were merely being brought to the East." Thereupon the Fuehrer said, "Then you must believe that."
At first one would imagine the holocaust as sort of an open secret, but how clear is the record really on this?

A few passages from the fascinating book 'Tapping Hitler's Generals', which is transcripts of wiretaps of high ranking military personnel, who apparently should have been able to get info on such things 
KITTEL: In UPPER SILESIA they simply slaughtered the people
systematically. They were gassed in a big hall.300
SCHAEFER: When was that done?
KITTEL: Up till the spring, then it was stopped.
SCHAEFER: Who are the people concerned?
KITTEL: I don’t know. There’s the greatest secrecy about all those things.
SCHAEFER: One can hardly believe that such a thing could happen in the
world.
THOMA: In the paper today there are details of the mass poisonings, that gas
business. I know it’s true, because the people who did it told me about it
themselves.
BASSENGE: I don’t know, but I presume it is . . . 100 per cent correct.
THOMA: Yes, I heard of it from a man who had to do it. It was SS men and
Gestapo youths who rounded up the Jews and so on, and as they had no
technical experts amongst their own numbers, chemists who were in the
gas department of the Ordnance Branch, had to work with them. One
man told me himself with horror that that time in RUSSIA was the most
appalling time of his life; I said I wouldn’t have done it.
THOMA: When I’ve got both the German and English news service I can
roughly sift out what’s true.
BASSENGE: Obviously everyone lies like a trooper in war-time and here
one has the opportunity of hearing both sides–
THOMA: We get a clearer picture than the Generals in command at the
front.
BASSENGE: We were never so well-informed as we are here.
In Goebbels two speeches to the propaganda department, which can only be taken as a response to widespread western allegations of mass slaughter of Jews at the AR camps, he presents the case as something wholly different. Deportation rather, might be the alleged crime. 
Since the hostile news reports of the alleged German atrocities against Jews and Poles are coming thick and fast, and since it’s the case that we can’t produce a great deal of proof to the contrary, the Minister recommends, according to the principle that the best defense is a good offense[…] that we start producing some atrocity propaganda on our own side[…]. Just as the English, we too can refer to wholly vague sources which say something like, ‘Trustworthy individuals, just recently arrived in Lisbonfrom Cairo, report that so-and-so many leading Egyptians have been shot,and so on.
 
The Minister, with all urgency, considers it an absolute necessity tobegin a large-scale campaign to exonerate ourselves in the Jewish question, starting immediately. There is no longer any doubt that the Jewish  question must be made an issue in the world generally, in a big way. At themoment, there is no way we can answer these things. If the Jews say, forexample, we shot 2.5 million Jews in Poland or deported them to the East,we can’t of course say, it was only 2.3 million. We are not in a position toenter a discussion of these things, at least not in public.What’s more, the international public is not well enough informed onthe Jewish question for us to be able to say, ‘Yes, we did it, and here’s thereason why.’ We couldn’t even get a word in edgeways. Thus, a relief campaign in the grandest style must now be made. If, for example, TO [Germannews agency Transocean; P. L.] reports that 500 people have been arrested[i.e., by the British] in India, we must not simply repeat the report in thisform, but rather must say: ‘378 have been shot and 82 more have beenhanged; the rest have been sentenced to starvation.’ All reports of this kind[…] must now be greatly exaggerated, even as the enemy does, the otherway around, with his atrocity reports on the Jewish question
 

Indeed, even within the upper echelons of the SS it's unclear how much information was openly shared. What do you all make of this passage, between Himmler and SS chief Muller?
(1) I am not surprised that reports like these circulate in the world regarding the great Jewish emigration. We also know that among Jews sent to work, mortality is very high.
(2) Your responsibility is to see that the dead Jewish bodies are buried or cremated. It is forbidden to do anything else with the bodies.
(3) Please investigate whether somebody had misused our intentions according to the above
mentioned first paragraph, and caused the spread of lies around the world. Every such misuse
has to be reported to me under the oath of the SS.
On first glance, a term like "the great Jewish emigration" seems somewhat like an ironic in-joke,  but why does he need to use the word "lies"?

Finally we have the Pozen speech, where according to many SS tried at Nuremberg, they first learned of the extermination plans. Yet in the speech, Himmler says 'every Party member will tell you “perfectly clear, it’s part of our plans, we’re eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, a small matter.” 

Yet  here is a part of the speech glorifying secrecy and the discreteness. 
I also want to mention a very difficult subject before you here, completely openly. It should be discussed amongst us, and yet, nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public.Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty, as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them.About which we have never spoken, and never will speak.That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it, everyone shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time, he would do the same thing again, if it were commanded and necessary.
I am not sure what to make of all this perhaps contradictory information. Personally I doubt the holocaust was exactly an open secret, something much talked about. Rather I think Nazis hid this information from themselves not just to prevent it from falling into foreign hands, but also for their own sake. Certainly not all of them were monsters in the clinical sense. Euphemism can be a valuable thing. The SS may have seen things differently, one gets the sense from the brief passage in the Pozen speech, they viewed themselves as keepers of something approaching a religious secret.

What are your guys thoughts on how the holocaust was viewed by Nazi leadership? Any interesting books or primary source documents? How about encrypted documents, perhaps some that might be more wordy?   

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#2

Post by wm » 20 Jul 2020, 09:39

Himmler to Höss:
The Führer has ordered that the Jewish question be solved once and for all and that we, the SS, are to implement that order.
...
You will treat this order as absolutely secret, even from your superiors.
So the secrecy was extreme, the person responsible knew, but for all the others, it was protective transfers of unreliable people, not much different from what the Americans did with their Japanese citizens.

But in reality, I think they just didn't care.
The Soviets liquidated entire classes of people, literally by millions, people they considered a mortal threat and got away with it.
So why not the Nazis? After all, they considered the Jews their mortal enemy.

Today the USSR is remembered with fondness by many; maybe victorious Nazi Germany would have been too?

And the Holocaust in the grand scheme of things wasn't that big affair. The Nazis suffered defeat after defeat; their cities were mass bombed, their children got killed by thousands every day fighting.
For the Nazis, it was apocalypse now. If you live through an apocalypse you don't care that some people are killed, innocent or not.

The Jews of Warsaw Ghetto explained it best in 1942:
For long, long months, we tormented ourselves in the midst of our suffering with the questions: Does the world know about our suffering? And if it knows, why is it silent? Why is the world not stirred when tens of thousands of Jews are shot in Fonari? Why is the world silent when tens of thousands of Jews are poisoned in Chelmno? Why is the world silent when hundreds of thousands of Jews are massacred in Galicia and other newly occupied areas?

Having posed the questions, we answered them ourselves: Why should the world be shaken by the massacre in Vilna when the Germans slaughtered in Rostov, a similar number of Ukrainians and Jews in Kiev? Why should the world be shaken by our suffering when rivers of blood are spilled daily on every battlefield? In what respect is our Jewish blood more precious than that of the Russian, Chinese, English soldiers?


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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#3

Post by Hans1906 » 20 Jul 2020, 12:47

Good afternoon Loog,

probably this article in the german Wikipedia is of interest for you:

Sprache des Nationalsozialismus / Language of national socialism: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprache_d ... ozialismus

Literaturliste zum Thema / Literature list on the topic: http://home.edo.tu-dortmund.de/~hoffman ... os/NS.html
(Source: Wiki article)

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The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#4

Post by wm » 21 Jul 2020, 21:50

Hitler's orders for the mass murder of Polish intellectuals, Jews, the mentally ill, and later of the political commissars of the Red Army, were fairly well known at the highest levels of the Army High Command. Stauffenberg probably received some information about the atrocities in 1939 and 1940.

The available evidence shows him concerned primarily with military operations. It is not known whether Stauffenberg knew of Hitler's order of 31 March 1941 to exterminate the Communist intelligentsia and the Jews in the Soviet Union, but it seems likely in view of his duties on the General Staff. Comrades say that he became increasingly outraged at the multifarious brutality of Nazism.
...
Although there are no indications that Stauffenberg learned of systematic mass killings of Jews and others before the spring of 1942, it is clear that in the first months of the Russian campaign his attention was drawn to the crimes committed by SS and police units behind the front lines.

In the summer of 1941 Stauffenberg asked Second Lieutenant (Res.) Walther Bussmann, who worked in the Quartermaster-General's War Administration Branch 'to collect everything that implicated the SS. Bussmann informed Stauffenberg of reports that SS and police mobile killing units (Einsatzgruppen) were conducting mass shootings behind the front, and Stauffenberg saw the reported figures for the victims, which ran into millions.

According to Bussmann, Stauffenberg and the head of General Staff Operations Branch, Colonel (GS) Adolf Heusinger, led the demand for a revocation of the order that all captured Red Army commissars were to be shot out of hand.

About that time, knowledge of the secret policy of genocide had begun to spread, though mostly in the form of unverified rumour. In November 1941 Fritz-Dietiof, Count Schulenburg, informed his wife that there was a camp called Auschwitz where they were burning Jews in ovens.

Helmuth James, Count Moltke, who was serving in the legal branch of the OKW's Foreign Countries Group, did not find out about Auschwitz until 20 March 1942, and then it was because his brother-in-law, Hans Deichmann, worked for I.G. Farben and often had business at industrial plants in the town of Auschwitz. Deichmann told Moltke that in a camp near Auschwitz Jews were being killed by the thousands in gas-chambers.
Moltke searched for more information and came across the fact that on 20 January 1942 a conference had been held at a Wannsee villa to coordinate the 'final solution of the Jewish Question'.

But he still refused to believe in mass extermination until 9 October 1942, when he received a second report, which he considered authentic, about an 'SS blast-furnace' in which 6000 corpses were burned daily. Although he tried to find out more and had fairly good access to information thanks to his position in the Foreign Countries Group, his knowledge was still vague. On 25 March 1943 he wrote — through his friend Dr Harry Johansson of the Nordic Ecumenical Institute in Sigtuna to his English friend Lionel Curtis, telling him of his belief
that at least nine tenths of the population do not know that we have killed hundreds of thousands of Jews [...] We have been informed that in Upper-Silesia a big KZ [concentration camp] is being built which is expected to be able to accommodate 40 to 50,000 men, of whom 3 to 4000 are to be killed each month. But all this information comes to me, even to me, who is seeking facts of this nature, in a rather vague and indistinct and inexact form.

Stauffenberg: A Family History, 1905-1944 by Peter Hoffmann

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#5

Post by David Thompson » 22 Jul 2020, 02:56

For interested readers -- see these threads;

Secrecy and the Final Solution
viewtopic.php?t=54395
Official resistance to war crimes
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14313
Hitler and Murders in Poland 1939-1940
viewtopic.php?t=24138

Sid Guttridge
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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#6

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Jul 2020, 07:10

Double post.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 22 Jul 2020, 07:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocausw t

#7

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Jul 2020, 07:19

When the large scale killing of Jews began in the second half of 1941, the German leadership assumed that it was on course to victory and that it would never have to be accountable for the "Final Solution".

I would suggest that everyone, from Hitler down, knew that the mass murder of the Jews would be an enormous and potentially inexpungeable blemish on the reputation of the German state and people if it were ever made public.

It would challenge the very fundamentals of German self image as a civilised people and would create national introspection and disquiet.

It was therefore conducted as silently and anonymously as possible with the intention of wiping out all traces of a Jewish presence in Europe for ever.

In the generations after victory, the absence of a victim would prevent any discussion of a crime that might disquiet the German people, who would be reluctant to address, let alone acknowledge, that such a monstrous thing could be done in their name.

This appears to have played out during the war. Most adult Germans seem to have been aware that something unpleasant and disreputable was happening to the Jews in their name, but they preferred not to know about it. Only defeat brought them face to face with it, and even then many refused to believe it. How much less willing would they have been after victory had ensured all evidence was destroyed!

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 22 Jul 2020, 07:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#8

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Jul 2020, 07:42

Hi wm,

You are, I hope, expressing yourself poorly.

You post, "And the Holocaust in the grand scheme of things wasn't that big affair." Is that your personal opinion, or is that an opinion you are attributing to someone else?

It is often difficult to differentiate your opinions from those you are attributing to others.

Sid.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#9

Post by steve248 » 22 Jul 2020, 18:31

How did the leadership view the Holocaust? They could hardly say they were not informed. The participants in the Wannsee Conference of 20 Jan 1942 held by RSHA Chief Heydrich along with some of his people who were carrying the out the murders and those organizing the transport.
BdS Krakau (Schöngarth) and BdS Riga (Lange) were the principal murderers present.
Stapo-Müller and Eichmann were the organizers.
And those who were told about the Final Solution program came from
Ministry of Justice
The Reich Cabinet
Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories
Foreign Office
Office of the Four Year Plan
General Government of Poland
Party Chancellery
Several absentees - Ministry of Transport and the Armed Forces; the former already complicit in the transport of Jews to the East, and the latter already participating in mass murder in the East.

People at the top were already informed and gossiped about the terrible activities taking place in the East and the disappearance of Jews from the Reich. You only to read Sönke Neitzel's book "Soldaten" to realize anyone who served in the east could hardly not know about the killings. Neitzel wrote about the conversations between army generals in British captivity that were bugged. I have written about similar information from lower ranked soldiers who were bugged or gave statements when captured.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#10

Post by wm » 22 Jul 2020, 20:40

The Wannsee Conference discussed the Final Solution, but the Final Solution was defined as a [quite brutal] evacuation to the East, not gassing. For example, in the protocol of the conference, this could be found:
An important precondition, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich noted further, for the carrying out of the evacuation, in general, is the precise determination of the groups of persons involved.
It is intended not to evacuate Jews over 65 years old, but to place them in an old-age ghetto — Theresienstadt is being considered.


This is why Goebbels wrote in his secret diary two months later after the conference:
I read a detailed report from the SD and police regarding the Final Solution of the Jewish question. ...
There are more than 11 million Jews still in Europe. The will have to be concentrated later, to begin with, in the East;
possibly an island, such as Madagascar, can be assigned to them after the war.
It shows that three months after the Holocaust was ordered, even Goebbels didn't know about it.

According to Browning, the report he received was probably the Protocol of the Wannsee Conference.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#11

Post by wm » 22 Jul 2020, 20:44

Sid Guttridge wrote:
22 Jul 2020, 07:42
You post, "And the Holocaust in the grand scheme of things wasn't that big affair." Is that your personal opinion, or is that an opinion you are attributing to someone else?
It was:
And the Holocaust in the grand scheme of things wasn't that big affair. ... [f]or the Nazis.
...
If you live through an apocalypse you don't care that some people are killed, innocent or not.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#12

Post by wm » 22 Jul 2020, 20:59

steve248 wrote:
22 Jul 2020, 18:31
People at the top were already informed and gossiped about the terrible activities taking place in the East and the disappearance of Jews from the Reich.
The majority of German Jews emigrated pre-war. In 1941 there was about a single Jew per thousands of Germans in Germany.
It was impossible to notice their (partial anyway) disappearance. There were too few of them for that.

Especially that the German Jews were initially sent to ghettos in Poland not to death camps - from where they were able to send letters home.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#13

Post by steve248 » 22 Jul 2020, 21:25

According to the agenda of the Wannsee Conference, in January 1942 there were 131,800 in the Altreich and 43,700 in Ostmark (Austria): a total of 175,500 Jews in these two areas alone. That is more than the corona virus deaths in Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy and France at the moment.
You are saying that no one noticed. I am sorry but people, ordinary Germans and Austrians did notice. They saw the Jews walking across town to the railway station. They knew they were not going somewhere "nice" and they knew they would not be coming back. They went to the furniture sales and bought former Jewish belongings.

Do not be so dismissive of a substantial block of published work.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#14

Post by wm » 22 Jul 2020, 23:31

What a block of published work? Be specific.

Every day millions of people used rail transport in Germany. Workers, soldiers, recruits, foreign workers - masses of people crowded the stations all the time.
This is why so many escapees from KLs or POW camps were successful. In the constant chaos, they were able to blend in.

Germans worked for 12 hours per day, then spent nights in air-raid shelters because some bombers flew by.
Nobody was observing railway stations, nobody cared - at all.
It wasn't like the Germans spent their free time on Facebook. They didn't have any free time, they suffered the deprivations of war to the point Goebells seriously worried the would have rebelled.

And it wasn't done like that, Jews were required to report to their collection points and then were transported to a railway station - discreetly.

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Re: How the leadership viewed the holocaust

#15

Post by wm » 22 Jul 2020, 23:46

We might ask the Jews themselves, did they care about their less fortunate brethren. And they didn't. That was a world war, apocalyptic times.
You take pity only on those closest to you - people from your family, world, or milieu. The attitude towards more distant people, strangers, is usually indifferent, contemptuous, and numb. Solidarity, altruism, humanitarianism, and philanthropy are obsolete terms, anachronisms, for the inhabitant of the ghetto. l am talking about the masses because individuals do not set the tone of the street.
And the street does not show such feelings at all. The phenomenon is completely plain, explicit, and striking.

You walk indifferently past the corpse of a baby, of an older man, or of a youth because it is none of your business.

[N]obody cares about strangers.
The Ringelblum Archive. Warsaw Ghetto, Everyday life. The Street, July 1942.

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