Churchill´s warcrimes

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
Andreas
Member
Posts: 6938
Joined: 10 Nov 2002, 15:12
Location: Europe

#301

Post by Andreas » 18 Apr 2007, 09:32

tonyh wrote: "Guilty" of what?
I did not say he was "guilty" of anything. I do however have problems with your apparent idea that bombing a city that has been declared open before the declaration of war is not a war crime.
tonyh wrote:As for Dresden, it still doesn't change the fact that the RAF neither targeted or hit the said objects....but still managed to incinerate thousands and thousands of people.

Tony
That could be plain old incompetence, wouldn't be the first time with the British military establishment either. I just wanted to correct your misleading statement about the outskirts.

All the best

Andreas

Hop
Member
Posts: 571
Joined: 09 Apr 2002, 01:55
Location: United Kingdom

#302

Post by Hop » 18 Apr 2007, 12:05

As for incendiaries, that was standard ordnance for any bomber aircraft during the war.
The point of incendiaries is to start fires. How can you then claim the Germans were "surprised" at the fires they started?
If the factories weren't the target, then far more than 500 civilians would have been killed in the attack.
Based on what? The Luftwaffe killed almost exactly 1 person per ton of bombs dropped that night.

Their long term average in the Blitz was somewhat less than that. The British dropped 657,000 tons on Germany, even if the USAAF never killed a German civilian, that's still less than 1 person killed per ton of bombs dropped.

The truth is that individual raids were very variable in the casualties they caused. The RAF's first thousand bomber raid on Cologne, for example, saw 1,500 tons dropped on the city, killing 474 people, and 36 factories destroyed (perhaps Cologne wasn't an area raid either, as so many factories were destroyed?) (all figures from The Right of the Line by Terraine)
What parachute mines? The 1/2KG antipersonnel weapon?
No, the 2000 lb naval mine, adapted for use on land, which carried a very high explosive content.
Either way only 100+ of these "air mines" were dropped on Coventry (some say 50). Not that large a number.
100 x 2000 lb bombs adds up 90 tons. That's quite a large percentage of the 500 tons of HE bombs dropped. The fact that such a large proportion of the bombload was deliberately made up of bombs that could not be aimed at anything smaller than a city shows that factories were just one of the targets.
The only other "parachute bomb" the Luftwaffe used was the SB1000 and that was used to penetrate armoured structures, like concrete bunkers. It wasn't a H E type weapon. They also didn't exist in 1940 IIR and only one per aircraft could be carried.
The Warbirds Resource Group doesn't list mines.


Andreas
Member
Posts: 6938
Joined: 10 Nov 2002, 15:12
Location: Europe

#303

Post by Andreas » 18 Apr 2007, 12:33

Bristol Past wrote:At times the Luftwaffe also purposely dropped its standard sea mines, fitted with a suitable detonator, on British cities where they became universally known as Land Mines. With their high charge ratio of 60 to 70 per cent explosive and slow parachute retarded descent they created considerable blast damage in built-up areas. The 1000 kg Luft Mine B was normally employed, and as such was designated Bomben B when used against land targets. During 1941 a new weapon, the BM 1000 "Monika" , made its appearance. This consisted of the sea mine LMB, but fitted with a bomb tail unit, being designed to be dropped like a conventional bomb without a parachute.
All the best

Andreas

tonyh
Member
Posts: 2911
Joined: 19 Mar 2002, 13:59
Location: Dublin, Ireland

#304

Post by tonyh » 18 Apr 2007, 15:13

The point of incendiaries is to start fires. How can you then claim the Germans were "surprised" at the fires they started?[/quote}

They were surprised by the extent of the damage. Also, just because incendiaries were used doesn't mean that the factories outlined in the target list weren't the target.

No, the 2000 lb naval mine, adapted for use on land, which carried a very high explosive content.

100 x 2000 lb bombs adds up 90 tons. That's quite a large percentage of the 500 tons of HE bombs dropped. The fact that such a large proportion of the bombload was deliberately made up of bombs that could not be aimed at anything smaller than a city shows that factories were just one of the targets.
Emm....no, I'm afraid it doesn't Hop. The factories listed were THE target. If other things were hit or burned in Coventry, I doubt the Germans would lose any sleep, but it still doesn't change the fact that the aircraft of Luftflotte 3 set out to bomb the factories listed and did so.
The only other "parachute bomb" the Luftwaffe used was the SB1000 and that was used to penetrate armoured structures, like concrete bunkers. It wasn't a H E type weapon. They also didn't exist in 1940 IIR and only one per aircraft could be carried.
The Warbirds Resource Group doesn't list mines.
What did the Germans call this mine?

Either way...none of the above changes the original point that the attack on Coventry and Dresden are two very VERY different types of attack.


Tony

tonyh
Member
Posts: 2911
Joined: 19 Mar 2002, 13:59
Location: Dublin, Ireland

#305

Post by tonyh » 18 Apr 2007, 15:17

Andreas wrote:
Bristol Past wrote:At times the Luftwaffe also purposely dropped its standard sea mines, fitted with a suitable detonator, on British cities where they became universally known as Land Mines. With their high charge ratio of 60 to 70 per cent explosive and slow parachute retarded descent they created considerable blast damage in built-up areas. The 1000 kg Luft Mine B was normally employed, and as such was designated Bomben B when used against land targets. During 1941 a new weapon, the BM 1000 "Monika" , made its appearance. This consisted of the sea mine LMB, but fitted with a bomb tail unit, being designed to be dropped like a conventional bomb without a parachute.
All the best

Andreas
Cheers Andreas. I presume that only one of these could be carried by a He111 or a Ju88? Externally too?

Tony

Andreas
Member
Posts: 6938
Joined: 10 Nov 2002, 15:12
Location: Europe

#306

Post by Andreas » 19 Apr 2007, 13:52

Apparently there was a 500kg version too. I have no idea about the carrying capacity of either the Ju 88 or the He 111, and where specific loads had to be carried.

Some pictures here: http://www.sudden-strike-2-maps.de/phpB ... hp?p=21360

All the best

Andreas

User avatar
redcoat
Member
Posts: 1361
Joined: 03 Mar 2003, 22:54
Location: Stockport, England

#307

Post by redcoat » 19 Apr 2007, 22:40

="tony] I presume that only one of these could be carried by a He111 or a Ju88? Externally too?

Tony
The source Andreas gave us, on the bombing campaign around Bristol, mentions a He111 carrying two of these bombs.

tonyh
Member
Posts: 2911
Joined: 19 Mar 2002, 13:59
Location: Dublin, Ireland

#308

Post by tonyh » 20 Apr 2007, 17:23

Well, later versions of the He111, from the H6 (produced in 1941) onwards could carry up to 2000KG of load. But it was a rare occasion and needed a long take off run and were usually used in low level attacks. There are a number of instances in Russia I am aware of and in most cases the aircraft operated in very small formation or more likely in a single plane sortie. A number of He111's with 2 1000KG bombs were used in the attack on Sevastopol.

However, In most cases a single 1000KG bomb would be carried on one rack with an SC500 or SC250 on the other. All carried externally of course.

Looking at the shape of the mine, I doubt too many aircraft would have carried two. It looks like a really awkward item to carry.

Tony

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”