Hitler's plans for Slavic nations

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lukeo
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Hitler's plans for Slavic nations

Post by lukeo » 29 Jun 2003 18:43

Hi there!

I read a book about Hitler's plans after the war, and I'm specially interested in his plans for the Slavs.

1) Russians, Ukrainians, Belariusians. Keeping as slaves (without any medicine or education) for about 20 years (before mechanisation of farming introduced). After that - total extermination.

2) Poles. Some (those "racial more valuable") - germanised. The rest exterminated or resettled into Siberia.

2) Czechs - Same as Poles.

But I'm not sure, what Hitler planned for the rest (Including Slovaks, Croatians, and Bulgars, allies of Germany). Does anyone know something about this?

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Post by David Thompson » 29 Jun 2003 20:19

lukeo -- There's a fair amount of material posted in this section of the forum on Nazi policies towards Russians and Poles, much less on the Czechs, and not a lot on Nazis plans for the Croats, Serbs, Slovaks and Bulgarians. I'm trying to put together a thread index, but my peacekeeping duties keep pulling me away from that project. Here are some threads on Nazi occupation policy in Poland and the USSR:

German Occupation of Poland

Polish scouts involved in war/resistance operations
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17648

Wolyn/Volhynia in World War II
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17547

Slaughter of Polish professors in Lwow/Lemberg - 1941
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17676

A life for life...
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17411

Crimes of German 5th Column – 1939
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17404

Fascinating article about Germans and Poles during WWII
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17318

POLES: VICTIMS OF THE NAZI ERA
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16555

German Occupation of USSR

Generalplan Ost
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=20050

Wolyn/Volhynia in World War II
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17547

Slaughter of Polish professors in Lwow/Lemberg - 1941
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17676

The Young Guard - Anatomy of a Tragedy
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17385

The killing of Galizian jews in 1941/1942
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17478

Nazi Occupation in Russia 1941
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23908

Nazi War Crimes and Soviet Partisans 1942
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23644

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 01 Jul 2003 09:09

Comment on the post by lukeo.

As to point 1. There is really no evidence of any plan to exterminate the Great Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians.

The Generalplan-Ost laid down that persons belonging to those ethnic groups who lived in geographical areas that wre identified for grman settlement (these included Ingermanland [the area around Leningrad], parts of Belorussia, parts of West Ukraine, Crimea, and the Dnepr bend) would be germanised if suitable, or else expelled from those areas.

As to point 2. What lukeo writes is essentially correct. Approximately one-eighth of ethnic Poles were considered suitable for germanisation. The remainder were to be expelled, most likely to Siberia (although Wetzel of the Ostministerium suggested migration to Brazil).

It should be noted that the criteria by which suitability for germanisation was to be judged were not solly anthropological, ie physical features, but also cultural, social and economic, eg for a Polish family to be considered suitable for germanisation, it had to exhibit a superior level of initiative, cleanliness, economic efficiency and various other qualities. A good book to read on the theory behind germanisation is Gotz Aly's "Architects of Annihilation".

Since the Baltic States were scheduled for German settlement, the Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians were also to be selected for germanisation. The German demographic experts estimated that about half of the Baltic peoples would be suitable for germanisation; those considered unsuitable would be resettled in European Russia where they would form a class of middle-level administrators assisting the German overlords, ie a role they had taken during the Tsarist period.

With regard to the South Slavic peoples, there were no plans for these, except for the Slovenes, who were to be germanised or deported to Serbia, since Slovenia was scheduled for German settlement. There were no plans for Croats, Serbs, Slovaks, Bulgars et, since the areas they inhabited wre not designated as areas of German settlement (indeed, the ethnic Germans who already lived there were to be repatriated to the German settlement areas. The future of those countries was to be as German satellites, providing raw materials to German industry.

BY the way, lukeo, what was the book you read?

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 01 Jul 2003 11:47

michael mills wrote:Comment on the post by lukeo.

As to point 1. There is really no evidence of any plan to exterminate the Great Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians.
That's correct. They were merely to be decimated, displaced or turned into helots.
German historian Christian Gerlach ([i]Kalkulierte Morde[/i], pages 51 and following) wrote:[…]Die von Hitler genehmigte Vernichtungspolitik durch Hunger richtete sich gegen zwei Bevölkerungsgruppen: einerseits gegen die Menschen in der „Waldzone“ in Mittel-, Nordruβland und Weiβruβland, und andererseits gegen die städtische Bevölkerung der Sowjetunion allgemein. Zwar enthielt dieser Plan, den im Juni 1941 sogar noch die Volkswirtschaftliche Abteilung der Deutschen Reichsbank überprüfte und grundsätzlich guthieβ, einige grundlegende Schwächen, die ihre Urheber übersahen. Zum Beispiel waren Überschuβ- und Zuschuβgebiete in der Sowjetunion keineswegs klar getrennt, und vor allem war die Ukraine gar nicht das wichtigste sogenannte Überschuβgebiet, sondern versprach, selbst wenn man den Verbrauch der Bevölkerung gewaltsam herabdrückte, nur relativ geringe „Überschüsse“. So muβte die Volkswirtschaftliche Abteilung der IG Farben am 26. November 1941 feststellen, daβ die bisher eroberten „Gebiete zusammen – unter der Voraussetzung normaler Ernährung – Zuschussgebiete für Brotgetreide“ seien, die theoretisch Lieferungen aus dem Wolga-Ural-Gebiet benötigt hätten. Vor allem aber scheint niemand eine genaue Vorstellung gehabt zu haben, wie das Verhungern eigentlich in einem Gebiet, wo mindestens zum Teil deutsche Truppen stehen sollten, genau vor sich gehen sollte.
Trotzdem wurde das Vorhaben, Millionen Menschen in den besetzten sowjetischen Gebieten verhungern oder anders umkommen zu lassen, zur Leitlinie fur viele Entscheidungsträger. Dabei spielte oft die ominöse Zahl 30 Millionen – um die die Bevölkerung nach den Vorstellungen Backes zu vermindern war – eine Rolle. Die Tatsache, daβ viele entsprechende Äuβerungen von Akteuren aus dem Bereich Weiβruβland und „Ruβland-Mitte“ stammen, ist kein Zufall, sondern dürfte mit dessen Zugehörigkeit zur „Waldzone“ zu erklären sein.
So hielt der Reichsführer-SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei, Heinrich Himmler, „Anfang 1941, vor Beginn des Ruβlandfeldzuges auf der Wewelsburg, [eine Rede], wo er davon sprach, daβ der Zweck des Ruβlandfeldzuges die Dezimierung der slawischen Bevölkerung um dreiβig Millionen sein sollte“, wie der ehemalige Höhere SS- und Polizeiführer von dem Bach-Zelewski 1946 in Nürnberg aussagte. Schriftliche Befehle habe es für diese Slawenvernichtung nicht gegeben. Bei der Rede sollen etwa zwölf Gruppenführer anwesend gewesen sein. Tatsächlich fand die fragliche Tagung der SS-Gruppenführer auf der Wewelsburg mit Himmler erst zwischen dem 12. und 15. Juni statt. Nach späterer Aussage des Chefs des Persönlichen Stabs Reichsführer-SS, Karl Wolff, sagte Himmler auf der Wewelsburg, daβ der Tod dieser Millionen Menschen nicht das Ziel, sondern vielmehr Folge des Krieges gegen die UdSSR sein würde. Bach-Zelewski ergänzte hierzu im Strafverfahren gegen Wolff, Himmler habe damals prognostiziert, Kriegshandlungen und Ernährungsschwierigkeiten würden zu dieser hohen Zahl von Opfern führen. Himmlers Eröffnung kam allerdings ziemlich spät und sehr ungenau, wie eben auch das Projekt der Ernährungsplaner vieles offenlieβ. Zufall oder nicht: zwei Tage vor dem Treffen auf der Wewelsburg hatte Himmler mit Backe über die Landwirtschaft der zu besetzenden sowjetischen Gebiete gesprochen.
Für sich genommen hätte man von dem Bach-Zelewskis Verlautbarungen vielleicht als bloβen Entlastungsversuch erklären können, da er sich auf einen höheren Befehl berief. Sie wird aber gestützt von einer Aussage des ehemaligen HSSPF Ostland Friedrich Jeckeln kurz zuvor im Januar 1946 in Riga:
„Herf sagte mir, daβ von dem Bach-Zelewski ihm erzählt hätte, er – von dem Bach – habe von Himmler den Befehl zur Vernichtung von 20 Millionen Sowjetbürger[n] auf dem Territorium Weiβruβlands und anderer Gebiete östlich von Weiβruβland, gleich dem Vormarsch der deutschen Armee nach dem Osten folgend, erhalten.“
Dabei ist zu beachten, daβ Bach-Zelewskis territoriales Aufgabengebiet „Ruβland Mitte“ mit Sitz in Moskau werden sollte. Er selbst schrieb sogar einmal, es werde vor allem östlich von Moskau bis zum Ural liegen. Ein Groβteil der sogenannten Waldzone wäre damit in seine Kompetenz gefallen, was erklären kann, warum ihm die Aufgabe zufiel, einen so groβen Teil jener 30 Millionen Menschen zu vernichten, eine Tatsache, die er in Nürnberg „vergaβ“. Das in Mittelruβland vorgesehene Inferno sollte so furchtbar werden, daβ sogar Erich Koch, einer der brutalsten NS-Politiker überhaupt, im Juni 1941 den Posten des Reichskommissars in Moskau mit der Begründung ablehnte, es handle sich um eine „gänzlich negative Tätigkeit“.
In seinen Memoiren berichtet der ehemalige Abwehroffizier der Heeresgruppe Mitte, Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff, über einen Besuch des Leiters des Vorkommandos Moskau der Einsatzgruppe B, Professor Franz Six, der ihm kurz nach dem Umzug des Stabsquartiers nach Borissow, also vermutlich im Juli 1941, von dem Plan erzählte:
„Dabei berichtete er, Hitler beabsichtige, die Ostgrenze des Reiches bis zur Linie Baku-Stalingrad-Moskau vorzuschieben. Ostwärts von dieser Linie werde bis zum Ural ein ‚Brandstreifen’ entstehen, in dessen Bereich alles Leben ausgelöscht werden würde. Man wolle die in diesem Streifen lebenden etwa dreiβig Millionen Russen durch Hunger dezimieren, indem man alle Nahrungsmittel aus dem riesigen Gebiet entfernte. Allen an dieser Aktion Beteiligten werde bei Todesstrafe verboten werden, einem Russen auch nur ein Stück Brot zu geben. Die groβen Städte von Leningrad bis Moskau sollten dem Erdboden gleichgemacht werden; der SS-Führer von dem Bach-Zelewski werde für die Durchführung dieser Maβnahmen verantwortlich sein.[...]
Eine geringfügig abweichende Version des gleichen Vorgangs gibt Wilfried Strik-Strikfeldt. Danach besuchten „ein Sonderbeauftragter des Ostministeriums Rosenberg in Begleitung eines hohen Parteifunktionärs die HG [Heeresgruppe] Mitte in Borissow.” Nach Wiedergabe des Oberbefehlshabers der Heeresgruppe, Generalfeldmarschall Fedor von Bock, hätten sie mit von Bock beim Essen von der Kolonisierung Ruβlands bis möglicherweise östlich von Moskau gesprochen. Eine Quintessenz sei dabei gewesen: „Vierzig Millionen Russen zuviel! Sie müssen ‚umkommen’!“ Damit sei verhungern gemeint gewesen. Von ihm, Strik, darauf angesprochen, habe Rosenberg erwidert, das seien „Hirngespinste“ der SS und einiger anderer ohne Bedeutung. Von Bock habe das Gehörte gar nicht glauben mögen. Doch der Generalfeldmarschall hatte sich schon am 5 Juni 1941 mit Himmler getroffen und von ihm informieren lassen, „Ziel des Feldzuges im Osten [sei] die Zertrümmerung Ruβlands in kleine Einzelstaaten und Ausdehnung der deutschen Interessensphäre weit über den Ural hinaus.“ Am 6 Juli notierte er: „Das Gebiet ist Hungerland. Seine Erträge werden kaum reichen [...], so daβ ich nicht weiβ, wie man die Frage der Ernährung der Bevölkerung lösen will.“ Gar so fremd waren von Bock diese Gedanken also keineswegs. Als ihn Himmler am 24. Oktober in Smolensk besuchte, bedankte er sich zumindest nach Aussage Bach-Zelewskis bei ihm für die Ermordung der Juden, diese „unsaubere Arbeit“, die man so nicht selbst tun müsse.
Zurück zu Six. Die von ihm vorgetragenen Vorstellungen beruhen offensichtlich auf dem Backe-Plan und zeigen auch merkliche Übereinstimmungen mit dem von Jeckeln Ausgesagten. Bezüglich der Durchführung blieben die Vorstellungen von Six wie auch in den „Wirtschaftspolitischen Richtlinien“ aber naiv und unklar. So einfach lieβ sich das Vorhaben zum Glück nicht umsetzen.
Der Hungerplan tauchte auch noch bei anderen Gelegenheiten auf. Für Göring war er geradezu ein Lieblingsthema. Im November 1941 sagte er dem italienischen Auβenminister Graf Ciano, innerhalb eines Jahres würden 20 bis 30 Millionen Menschen in Ruβland verhungern. Vielleicht sei das gut so, denn bestimmte Völker müβten reduziert werden. Hitler sprach von einer „Volkskatastrophe“ für das „Moskowitertum“ und erklärte, wegen fehlender oder zerstörter Nahrungsmittel in den besetzten sowjetischen Gebieten „müβten Millionen sterben“. Die deutsche Führung erklärte laut Goebbels „in aller Öffentlichkeit, daβ Ruβland nichts von uns zu erwarten habe und wir es verhungern lassen werden.“ Der Generalbevollmächtigte für den Arbeitseinsatz, Frizt Sauckel, sagte am 4. August 1942 bei einem Besuch in den besetzten sowjetischen Gebieten, als er im Herbst 1941 dort gewesen sei, hätten „alle deutschen Dienststellen auf der Überzeugung bestanden, daβ im kommenden, also im vergangenen Winter, mindestens zehn bis zwanzig Millionen dieser Leute einfach verhungern würden.“ Zumindest einige Besatzungsbehörden an Ort und Stelle vertraten also durchaus die Richtlinien, wie sie ähnlich wiederholt gegeben wurden: „Wir können nicht das ganze Land verwalten. Die Intelligenz ist totgeschlagen, die Kommissare sind weg. Groβe Gebiete werden sich selbst überlassen bleiben (verhungern).“ Auch der Ostminister Rosenberg äuβerte mehrfach, der Hungertod von Millionen Menschen sei „eine harte Notwendigkeit, die auβerhalb jeden Gefühls steht.“ Hans Tesmer, der Chef der Abteilung Kriegsverwaltung beim Befehlshaber rückwärtiges Heeresgebiet Mitte (1941-1942) und bei der Heeresgruppe Mitte (1942-1944) erinnerte sich miβbilligend: „Es kamen Parolen auf, dass in Ruβland ruhig einige Millionen verhungern könnten, dass die Russen verdummen sollten und ähnliche Ansichten mehr.“[...]


My translation
[…]The policy of annihilation by hunger approved by Hitler was directed against two population groups: on the one hand against the people in the "forest zone" of central and northern Russia and Belorussia, on the other against the urban population of the Soviet Union in general. It is true that this plan, which in June 1941 was even checked and in principle approved by the Macroeconomic Department of the German Reichsbank, contained some basic flaws overlooked by its authors. For instance the surplus and deficit regions in the Soviet Union were by no means clearly separated, and especially Ukraine was not the most important surplus region, for it promised only relatively little "surpluses" even if the population’s food consumption was forcibly reduced. Thus the Macroeconomic Department of IG Farben had to conclude on 26 November 1941 that, "under the assumption of normal nourishment", the territories conquered so far were "all together deficit regions in regard to bread grain", which theoretically would have required supplies from the Volga-Urals region. The main flaw, however, was that no one seems to have thought how the starvation was to occur in an area which at least partially contained German troops.
Nevertheless the intention of letting millions of people in the occupied Soviet territories starve or otherwise perish became the guideline for many decision-makers. In this respect the ominous number of 30 million – by which [State Secretary at the Ministry of Food and Agriculture] Backe considered that the population would have to be reduced – played a part.[my emphasis] The fact that many corresponding statements were made by acting figurers from the areas of Belorussia and "Central Russia" is no coincidence, but likely to be related to the fact that these regions were part of the "forest zone".
Thus the Reichsführer-SS and Head of the German Police, Heinrich Himmler, "at the beginning of 1941, before the start of the campaign against Russia, held [a speech] on the Wewelsburg, in which he stated that the purpose of the Russian campaign was the decimation of the Slav population by thirty million", as the former Head of SS and Police von dem Bach-Zelewski testified in 1946 at Nuremberg. Written orders for this annihilation of Slavs had not existed. At the speech twelve Gruppenführer (higher SS officers) were said to have been present. In fact the mentioned conference of the SS-Gruppenführer on the Wewelsburg with Himmler took place only between 12 and 15 June. According to a later deposition of the Head of the Personal Staff Reichsführer-SS, Karl Wolff, what Himmler had said on the Wewelsburg was that the death of these millions of people was not the goal, but would be the consequence of the war against the USSR. To this Bach-Zelewski, at the criminal trial against Wolff, added that Himmler had back then predicted that military actions and crises of food supply would lead to this high number of victims.[my emphasis] Himmler’s announcement, however, came very late and was very vague, just like the food planners’ project left many things open. Coincidence or not, two days before the meeting on the Wewelsburg Himmler had talked with Backe about the agriculture of the Soviet regions to be occupied.
All by themselves Bach-Zelewski’s utterances might be explained as a mere attempt to relieve himself, as he was invoking a higher order. They are supported, however, by a deposition that the former Head of SS and Police for the Eastern Territories, Friedrich Jeckeln, made shortly before in January 1946 at Riga:
"Herf [Eberhard Herf, commander of the Order Police Minsk from about January to March 1942 and August 1943 to January 1944, Head of the Staff of the Anti-partisan Units Reichsführer SS (Bach-Zelewski) for one month in July/August 1943] told me that von dem Bach-Zelewski had told him that he – von dem Bach – had been given by Himmler the order to destroy 20 million Soviet citizens on the territory of Belorussia and other regions east of Belorussia, immediately upon the heels of the advancing German Army."
In this respect it must be taken into account that Bach-Zelewski’s territorial area of action was to be "Central Russia" with head-office in Moscow. He himself even wrote once that it was to lie principally to the east of Moscow up to the Urals. A great part of the so-called forest zone would thus have fallen under his jurisdiction, which could explain why he was given the task to destroy so large a part of those 30 million people, a fact that he "forgot" at Nuremberg. The inferno foreseen for Central Russia was to be to terrible that even Erich Koch, one of the most brutal NS politicians, rejected the place of Reich Commissar in Moscow with the justification that this was "a wholly negative activity".[my emphasis]
In his memoirs the former counterespionage officer of Army Group Center, Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff, wrote about a visit by the head of the Advance Detachment Moscow of Einsatzgruppe B, Professor Franz Six, who shortly after the moving of the staff quarters to Borissow, i.e. presumably in July 1941, told him about the plan:
"He reported that Hitler had the intention to push the eastern border of the Reich up to the line Baku-Stalingrad-Moscow. To the east of this line there would be created a ‘fire strip’ in the area of which all life was to be wiped out. It was intended to decimate the about thirty million Russians living in this area by hunger through the removal or all food from this gigantic area. All taking part in this action would be forbidden under punishment of death to even give a piece of bread to a Russian. The big cities from Leningrad to Moscow were to be leveled to the ground; Head of SS von dem Bach-Zelewski would be responsible for the execution of these measures.[my emphasis][...]
A slightly different version of the same event is given by Wilfried Strik-Strikfeldt. According hereto "a special envoy of Rosenberg’s Eastern Ministry, in the company of a high-ranking party officials, visited the Army Group at Borissow." As recalled by the Supreme Commander of Army Group Center, General Field Marshal Fedor von Bock, they had spoken with Bock at the meal about the colonization of Russia until possibly east of Moscow. A quintessence in this respect had been the following: "Forty million Russians too many! They must ‘perish’!" This meant starving to death. Asked about this by him, Strik, Rosenberg had answered that these were "fantasies" of the SS and some others without significance. Von Bock is supposed to have refused to believe what he heard. Yet the General Field Marshal had met Himmler already on 5 June 1941 and been informed by him that the "goal of the campaign in the East was the splitting of Russia into small single states and the extension of the German sphere of interest far beyond the Urals." On 6 July he noted the following: "The region is a hunger region. Its products will hardly be sufficient [...], so that I don’t know how one is to solve the problem of feeding the population." Thus von Bock was by no means that much a stranger to these thoughts. When Himmler visited him on 24 October in Smolensk, he – at least according to Bach-Zelewski’s testimony – thanked him for the murder of the Jews, this "dirty work" which he thus would not have to do himself.
Back to Six. The considerations exposed by him are obviously based on the Backe Plan and also show notable coincidence with Jeckeln’s deposition. In what concerns the execution his vision remained naïve and unclear, like in the "Guidelines of Economic Policy". Fortunately the project could not be put into practice that easily.
The Hunger Plan also appeared on other occasions. For Göring it was a favorite subject. In November 1941 he told the Italian foreign minister Count Ciano that within a year 20 to 30 million people would starve to death in Russia. Maybe this was a good thing, for certain peoples needed to be reduced.[my emphasis] Hitler spoke of a "population catastrophe" of the "Muscovites" and declared that due to lack or destruction of food "millions would have to die". According to Goebbels, the German leadership declared "publicly that Russia has nothing to expect from us and that we will let it starve to death."[my emphasis] The General Plenipotentiary for Labor Employment, Fritz Sauckel, stated on 4 August 1942, during a visit in the occupied Soviet territories, that when he had been there in the autumn of 1941 "all German authorities had persisted in the conviction that in the following, i.e. in the past winter, at least ten to twenty million of these people would simply starve to death." At least some occupation authorities on site thus stuck to the guidelines as they were repeatedly stated similar to this: "We cannot feed the whole land. The intelligence has been killed, the commissars are gone. Huge areas will be left to themselves (starve to death)." Also the Eastern Minister Rosenberg repeatedly stated that the starvation death of millions was "a harsh necessity that stands outside any sentiment."[my emphasis] Hans Tesmer, head of the Department War Administration at the Commander of the rear area of Army Group Center (1941-1942) and of Army Group Center (1942-1944) disapprovingly remembered the following: "Slogans came up that in Russia several million might well starve to death, that the Russians were to be kept dumb and other similar views of this sort."[...]

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Post by tonyh » 01 Jul 2003 12:09

Was "germanisation" a contempory term, used by the nazi's, or is it a post-war term?

Tony

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 01 Jul 2003 15:03

"Germanisation" was a contemporary term. "Eindeutschung" in Grman.

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Post by tonyh » 01 Jul 2003 16:32

Cheers Mike.

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lukeo
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Post by lukeo » 04 Jul 2003 19:23

michael mills wrote:
BY the way, lukeo, what was the book you read?
"Rozmowy z katem" ("My talks with the opressor") by Casimir Moczarski. It's a book written by former soldier of Polish resistance, who was imprisoned by the comunists.
With strange circumstances, he was put together with two Germans. One of them was JURGEN STROOP, the destroyer of Warsaw Ghetto, one of the most bestial SS-mann. Stroop was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Greeks and also Germans. He was friend of Himmler, Prutzmann and others.
He knew those plans for Slavs, and he told them to Moczarski. The Ukrainians were about to be exteminated by ALCOHOL(!!!). This was to be cheap and slow method (slow because of need of the labour).
I generally recomend this book. It is about whole Stroop's life (up to the moment he was hanged in Warsaw prison) and NSDAP and SS as whole. It contains many interesting and shocking facts, even those, that are not very known (for exmpl. Stroop killed fieldmarshal Kluge). It also records immaginable crimes commited by just ONE man.
I don't know about any translations from Polish language. They might be, but I've never heard about them. Some time ago this book was played in theater in Holand.

Best Wishes

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Rob S.
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Post by Rob S. » 05 Jul 2003 01:43

Aren't Belorussians primarily Nordic?

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 05 Jul 2003 02:20

Lukeo wrote:
"Rozmowy z katem" ("My talks with the opressor") by Casimir Moczarski. It's a book written by former soldier of Polish resistance, who was imprisoned by the comunists.
I have seen references to this book. It was used extensively as a source by Peter Padfield in his biography of Himmler. However, I have not been able to find any English translation of it.

It may be true that Moczarski really was in the same cell with Stroop, possible because Stroop was not executed until several years after the war, sometime in the 1950s as I recall.

On the other hand, it is possible that Moczarski made it all up, as a sort of moral tale.

By the way, the Ukrainians and Russians do not need anyone to exterminate them with the use of alcohol. They are doing a very good job of exterminating themselves by that method, one of the reasons why life expectancy in Russia is falling and the population is forecast to decline over time.

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Post by Dan » 05 Jul 2003 02:34

Thanks from me also, Michael. Great detailed post. I'm dissapointed in the German plans for the Balts, et. al., but the time was ugly, and the true historian has to describe it like it was.

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Jul 2003 03:46

Stroop, Juergen (26.9.1895-6.3.1952) [SS-Gruppenfűhrer und Generalleutnant der Waffen-SS und Polizei] -- NSDAP-Nr.: 1292297; SS-Nr.: 44611; SS and Police Commander (SSPF) Lemberg (Lodz) Feb 1943-Apr 1943; SS and Police Commander (SSPF) Warsaw 19 Apr 1943-13 Sept 43; Senior SS and Police Commander "Greece" (HSSPF "Griechenland") at Athens 8 Sept 1943-4 Oct 1943); Senior SS and Police Commander "Rhine-Western Frontier" (HSSPF "Rhein-Westmark") at Wiesbaden 11 Nov 1943-8 May 1945 {taken prisoner by US troops; extradition for war crimes sought by Greece 20 May 1945 (NYT 21 May 1945:10:4); put on trial 1947 by American military tribunal at Dachau for murders of allied airmen; convicted and sentenced to death 21 Mar 1947 (NYT 22 Mar 1947:5:3; NYT 1 Jun 1947:18:1; History of the United Nations War Crimes Commission and the Development of the Laws of War p. 532, United Nations War Crimes Commission, London: HMSO, 1948); extradited to Poland 30 May 1947 (NYT 1 Jun 1947:18:1); put on trial by a Polish court for war crimes committed during the battle for the Jewish ghetto at Warsaw; convicted and sentenced to death by hanging 8 Sept 1951; executed by the Polish government for war crimes 6 March 1952 (Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 926) or 9 Jul 1952 (SS: Roll of Infamy p. 165) at former site of Warsaw Ghetto.( Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]; Axis Biographical Research, SS und Deutschen Polizei [SS and German Police], http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/SS-PO ... lizei.html).}
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lukeo
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Post by lukeo » 05 Jul 2003 12:47

michael mills wrote: It may be true that Moczarski really was in the same cell with Stroop, possible because Stroop was not executed until several years after the war, sometime in the 1950s as I recall.

On the other hand, it is possible that Moczarski made it all up, as a sort of moral tale.
Well, Moczarski WAS in the same cell with Stroop, as well as with Gustaw Schielke, German policeman who worked in GG administration. Some time ago a journalist in Poland checked the archives of Mokotow Prison in Warsaw. Stroop, Moczarski and Schielke were put together in the same cell for 8 months.

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lukeo
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Post by lukeo » 05 Jul 2003 12:52

Rob S. wrote:Aren't Belorussians primarily Nordic?
Yes, they are. As well as the other slavs. In Poland there are many peoply that are 'nordic' (also me). I have no idea, why Hitler thought Slavs are "Untermensch".

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Post by michael mills » 06 Jul 2003 04:52

Lukeo wrote:
Well, Moczarski WAS in the same cell with Stroop, as well as with Gustaw Schielke, German policeman who worked in GG administration. Some time ago a journalist in Poland checked the archives of Mokotow Prison in Warsaw. Stroop, Moczarski and Schielke were put together in the same cell for 8 months.
Point taken.

In reading Moczarski's book, on would need to differentiate between what Stroop is supposed to have told Moczarski directly, and what Moczarski may have gleaned from other sources.

Furthermore, in assessing what Stroop told Moczarski, it is necessary to may due allowance for factors that might have influenced what Stroop said. For example, the alleged statement by Stroop that the Germans intended to exterminate the Ukrainians by alcohol may not reflect a real German Government policy, but rather Stroop's expressing his contempt for Ukrainians (perhaps playing up to anti-Ukrainian prejudices that Moczarski may have had). Or it may even have been Moczarski's own expression of contempt for Ukrainians, placed into Stroop's mouth!

These sorts of reminiscences need to be treated with great care as sources for German Government policy. While Stroop may well have been fully informed of such policy, it does not necessarily follow that he gave a totally exact account of it to Moczarski.

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