Hitler's plans for Slavic nations

lukeo · Post by **lukeo** » 30 Jul 2003 09:31

Well, Moczarski checked many archives after he was released from prison. Stroop was telling him truth. Moczarski didn't know why Stroop was telling the truth. Maybe he was confident, that he would get major penalty and he had nothing to lose...
Another amizing thing is that Stroop was telling to Moczarski numbers and facts that were exactly correct (for example number of killed Jews in Warsaw ghetto).Stroop wasn't very clever, but surely was so excited in his "work", that he remembered anything. He was even trying to convince Moczarski, that the number of killed Jews is astronomical a "lucky" one.

And for the Ukrainian people... Of course they drink much, but the Stroop's plan, if it would be introduced, would be a genocide. Stroop proposed to Himmler to force the Ukrainian people to drink all the time. And, the alcohol would be sell much cheaper if it was exchanged for book and newspaper maculature. So, Stroop planned not only biologigcal, but also cultural destruction of Ukrainian people.

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 31 Jul 2003 03:11

Luke0 wrote:

And for the Ukrainian people... Of course they drink much, but the Stroop's plan, if it would be introduced, would be a genocide. Stroop proposed to Himmler to force the Ukrainian people to drink all the time. And, the alcohol would be sell much cheaper if it was exchanged for book and newspaper maculature. So, Stroop planned not only biologigcal, but also cultural destruction of Ukrainian people.

I doubt that Ukrainians need to be forced to drink all the time. I am sure they do it quite voluntarily. And the Russians, and the Poles, and the Finns etc.

Whatever the accuracy of the details Stroop gave to Moczarski in relation to the Warsaw Ghetto, the alleged plan to wipe out the Ukrainians by means of excessive use of alcohol sounds too incredible to be true. Maybe Stroop was having a joke at Moczarski's expense.

pennywise · Post by **pennywise** » 31 Jul 2003 05:18

I don't know Hitler's plans of slavic nations, but this is the story of Bulgarian king(we called him tzar). The only country that saved its jews from the trains, going to camps, was Bulgaria(is it good or bad?).
King Boris III (half german) didn't gave a permission for deportation. A few months later he went to Germany on a meeting with Adolf Hitler. On the way back to Bulgaria he died. The historics think that he was poisoned...
Btw, his son, Simeon II, is today's prime minister of Bulgaria, funny, isn't it?!?

K.Kocjancic · Post by **K.Kocjancic** » 31 Jul 2003 06:09

michael mills wrote:With regard to the South Slavic peoples, there were no plans for these, except for the Slovenes, who were to be germanised or deported to Serbia, since Slovenia was scheduled for German settlement.

Slovene folk was considered as Germanic folk, who had been under Slavic goverment - Vendi, Veneti.

Agreement between Italy and Germany was signed, that all of German Volksdeutscher, living in Italian occupied area (Kočevarji), will be moved to "Reich". Indeed this had happend in '41-42, when all of Kočevarji were reseattled to Reich, just above the river Sava (on German side) to "be" a first line of defence of German folk.

Slovenes were also deported to Serbia and Reich (labour force).

Galicia · Post by **Galicia** » 31 Jul 2003 06:44

michael mills wrote:By the way, the Ukrainians and Russians do not need anyone to exterminate them with the use of alcohol. They are doing a very good job of exterminating themselves by that method, one of the reasons why life expectancy in Russia is falling and the population is forecast to decline over time.

First of Mr. Mills, you are very insulting. Have you even been to these countries in order to understand their culture? Or do you just think we're a bunch of Vodka drinking idiots who can make no contribution to intellectual society?

Now, for the main reason I posted,

From what I have been able to find, while Hitler was not at all fond of the Ukrainians, some Ukrainians from Podilia and other regions met the ethnic standards to be considered "Volksdeutche" although, most likely, these people had never even heard German in their life, let alone decended from Germany. The Waffen SS 14th Grenadier Division "Galicia" was, to my memory, not recruited to Waffen SS standards, although I may be wrong. Forgive me as my materials pertaining to that Division are not in front of me at the moment.

Galicia, or the Western Ukraine and a small part of S. Poland, would have been a direct part of the Reich. Most citizens there would probably have been considered Volksdeutche, as all of them at one time had been Austro-Hungarian or German Citizens during the Imperial Reich. From what I know on a personal basis, all the local gentry, (meaning armogenerous individuals), and former Officers of these above Armies were immiediatly considered Volksdeutche. However, the bulk of the Intellegensia of Poland and the Ukraine was not considered Volksdeutche, but an annoyance and overly nationalistic, (a bad thing for the Reich), and basically would have been slaughtered after the war had ended. No one liked the intellegensia, well, except for Ukrainians and the Poles.

Like Bormann and Goering, SS leader Heinrich Himmler said that "the entire Ukrainian intelligentsia must be decimated." (Dallin, p. 127).

The Reich wasn't as stupid to exterminate Ukrainians, they wanted to use them as slaves. A huge amount of Ukrainians were considered as "Osterbeiters," and shipped off to Germany. They also expropriated everything of value, as in this order below:

Plunder of Ukraine: Report by SS-Oberstrumfuehrer Ferster November 10, 1942: "Expropriate everything of value."

"Co. 4 in which I was employed seized in Kiev the library of the medical research institute. All equipment, scientific staff, (Osterbeiters), documentation and books were shipped out to Germany.

"We appropriated rich trophies in the library of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences which possessed singular manuscripts of Persian, Abyssinian and Chinese writings, Russian and Ukrainian chronicles, incunabula by the first printer Ivan Fedorov, and rare editions of Shevchenko, Mickiewicz, Ivan Franko, (worth hundreds of thousands today per copy).

"Expropriated and sent to Berlin were many exhibits from Kiev's Museums of Ukrainian Art, Russian Art, Western and Oriental Art and the Taras Shevchenko Museum...

"As soon as the troops seize a big city, there arrive in their wake team leaders with all kinds of specialists to scan museums, art galleries, exhibitions, cultural and art institutions, evaluate their state and expropriate everything of value." (History Teaches a Lesson, p. 176).

I have put a map at the bottom of this post, showing the boarders of Galicia and some of the General Gouvernment.[/quote]

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 31 Jul 2003 09:32

In October 1968, when I was a young student of 21, I and two friends stopped off in Moscow for a one-week visit on our way to study in Germany.

I very much enjoyed my stay and the sight-seeing. Some of the service-personnel, particularly the young ones, were rather surly, but the middle-aged ladies who sat at the service desks on each floor of our hotel were very nice.

I cannot say that I noticed a lot of drunkenness. Once when we went to the Intourist office for some assistance, it was obvious that the girl at the counter was drunk, but in a very merry way.

At the end of the week I fell ill with gastro-enteritis and had to be taken to hospital, while my friends flew off to Germany. I was all alone in the big, bad Soviet Union! Help!

Two ambulance-men who looked as if they were KGB, plus their female off-sider, came to the hotel to take me away in the frosty dawn. Where were they taking me? We ended up at the Bol'nitsa Imeni Botkina. The ambulance guys and gal were actually quite nice.

I spent a further week in a room by myself at the hospital. Occasionally people came in, shouted at me incomprehensibly, waved their arms about, and then went away; I never knew what they wanted. I had studied some Russian, so I could occasionally understand some of what they were saying, such as "On ne ponimaet, ni slova".

The thing I most remembered was being constantly hungry, since all I got to eat was a bowl of kefir and some prunes three times a day. I spent my time wondering when the KGB would send some beautiful girls to seduce me so that I could be blackmailed into being a spy.

At last, after a week, two beautiful girls turned up. Hooray, I thought; I was looking forward to being seduced by them. Alas, they were only from Intourist; the authorities had finally found out where I was, after I had not turned up at the airport at the scheduled time.

And no, the two girls were not drunk. They took me back to my hotel, and two days later I flew on to Vienna.

Thus ended my only experience of Russia.

But there is a wealth of material showing that life expectancy in Russia, particularly of males, has been falling for some time, with alcoholism and its accompanying illnesses being a major factor in that process. Furthermore, I have read that the United Nations has predicted that the population of Russia will fall markedly, because of a very low birth-rate and also declining standards of health.

So what I wrote was essentially correct. If you think it
insulting, take it up with the United Nations.

lukeo · Post by **lukeo** » 31 Jul 2003 13:34

Sorry, but we Poles don't drink so much. Of course we drink on parties, meetings etc. but never at work as some others do.
Much of Polish vodka production is being exported:D Poles now preffer beer.
You mey not know, that vodka was inventd in 14th century in Poland. Russians discovered vodka for themselves in 17th century, when in one of numerous Polish-Russian wars they entered the heart of Poland.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 31 Jul 2003 16:58

Let's get back on topic.

Galicia · Post by **Galicia** » 31 Jul 2003 20:42

Vienna, a beautiful city.

Unfortunatly, you are seeing the product of communism. I agree that the recent generation has been drinking to excess, but what I had a problem with is the fact that you are making a general statement about Ukrainians and Russians as drunks. I am very happy that you had a chance to see Russian culture in action, (regardless of communist activities). I must have missunderstood you above as you say that most of the Russians you saw, weren't drunk.

I think healthcare is a major factor, more so than drinking. Here in the States and the UK, we have the technology and mental health practicioners to take care of these peoplek, which is not available in the CIS. Last time on my visit to the Ukraine, I found that there had been makeshift hospitals in several former barrack tents.

Speaking of Vienna and gastro intestinal diseases, I was struck with one in Vienna, not very pretty and paralyzed for all four days there.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 31 Jul 2003 22:20

For the second time, let's get back on topic.

Babar · Post by **Babar** » 15 Aug 2005 19:22

Yes, they are. As well as the other Slavs. In Poland there are many people that are 'nordic' (also me). I have no idea, why Hitler thought Slavs are "Untermensch".

He didn't per se, I've read very much ragarding race and Nazi germany because it seem to be a topic very distorted, one person claims one thing and somebody else claims another. I'm confident that a sizeable amount of the so-called racial fanatacism of the germans and nazi were fabricated. By 1939 hitler all but disegarded the Idea of a Nordic master race, revising much of his old convictions, probably just because of the inconsistencies that were obvious, even to him.

I think what people are mixing up is the Words "aryan" and "Nordic". Race to the germans changed regarding Germany and germans in general. The First stage Hitler Romanticised alot of the writing of Houston Stewart Chamberlain, which was basically northern european ethnocentrism, but at the same time not making a claim of "subhumanity" of other races, which came later with other. This was the second most extreme stage, but it was also the most fleeting, For hitler anyways. It included the writing of Madison Grant, Guenther and Karl Weinlaender, who belived in the absolute supremacy of of the Nordic man, and that he is the only man capable of creating culture.

According to them the hierarchy went like this: Humanoids, Prehistoric Men, Giants, Pigmies, Australians, Negroes, Malayans, Indians, Mongolians, halfbreed "nordics" like say afghans or Iranians, and then finally the highest caste, which has a hierarchy in and of itself, which was europeans with negligible amount of admixture and then the greatest was the "pure" Nordic man. Soon even this extreme supremism was changed as well, because of the growing inconsistencies and harsh criticism, such as from Ludwig Ferdinand Clauss.

Another eugenecist named Geunther began promoting the idea that even the greatest and most noble preson of "mixed" race is inferior to the most slovenly Nordic Germans of pure blood, this idea didn't please Hitler, since this guys trying to tell him mongrels like Leibniz, Schopenhauer, Kant, Schiller, Schubert, Haydn, Beethoven, Raphael, Laplace, Napoleon, Pascal, Tolstoy etc are inferior to even the most pathetic "nordic". I could see why though since hitler himself was one of these "untermensche". The impossibility of accepting such a conclusion was obvious, to the least informed National Socialist. The leadership of the National Socialist Party with about 95 per cent. of the German population did not meet the requirements for first class citizenship under this scheme, so ideas were scraped. This was the last stage, which was basically just indifference to the old racial fanaticism. They stopped preaching about the bond of German "blood" and rather a mutual Aryan spirit. For example, as the war wen't on, the gestapo were arresting increasing numbers of forigners (mostly polish serfs) having relationships with germans, a problem that was extremely wide spread and was getting bigger, when it was realized how the german volk didn't agree with these laws the nazis were forced to change it, giving the people their own choice, which wasn't very hard to do since by this time they're general race doctorine wasn't very eccentric at all, as seen in this official statement given by the party in 39'.

"A serious situation arose through the fact that other people and States, because of German race laws… felt themselves attacked and defamed … For example the whole world of the Far East remained for a long time under the impression that the Germans… had designated them as non-Aryan, and as non-Aryans inferior rabble - (that the) Germans had designated (them) unworthy, second class humanity and that the Germans imagined themselves as the sole bearers of culture… What could we say to those who saw in German racism a fundamental defamation of men of other races? We could do nothing other than, with patience and conviction, repeat that German racism does not evaluate or deprecate other racial groups… It only recognizes, scientifically, that differences exist… We have often been disturbed by the indiscretion or even stupidity in our own land when, just after we had carefully made clear to some people or other that we respected and honored… their racial qualities, some wild fool manufactured his own ideas about race and declared that these same people were racially inferior and stood somewhere below the cow or the ass, and that their characteristics were degrading or impure and lord knows what else! By such idiotic assertions were repelled and offended not only alien peoples in distant parts of the world but even our own neighbors in Europe, many times even friends of National Socialist Germany bound to us historically and in destiny." (106)

Pieter Kuiper · Post by **Pieter Kuiper** » 16 Aug 2005 23:56

Babar wrote:For example, as the war wen't on, the gestapo were arresting increasing numbers of forigners (mostly polish serfs) having relationships with germans, a problem that was extremely wide spread and was getting bigger, when it was realized how the german volk didn't agree with these laws the nazis were forced to change it, giving the people their own choice, which wasn't very hard to do since by this time they're general race doctorine wasn't very eccentric at all, as seen in this official statement given by the party in 39'. (quote)

My impression is that the policy against german-polish sexual relations was hardening. Klaus Saul writes on page 20 of Gesichter der Zwangsarbeit that after 1942 pregnant Polish women were not sent home anymore, but forced to have abortions. If children were born, they were classified as schlechtrassig, and suffered in homes for foreign children.

See also my posting about a draft regulation by Freisler:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 819#744819

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 17 Aug 2005 15:50

Babar wrote:

For example, as the war wen't on, the gestapo were arresting increasing numbers of forigners (mostly polish serfs) having relationships with germans, a problem that was extremely wide spread and was getting bigger, when it was realized how the german volk didn't agree with these laws the nazis were forced to change it, giving the people their own choice, which wasn't very hard to do since by this time they're general race doctorine wasn't very eccentric at all, as seen in this official statement given by the party in 39'. (quote)

Peter Kuiper responded:

My impression is that the policy against german-polish sexual relations was hardening. Klaus Saul writes on page 20 of Gesichter der Zwangsarbeit that after 1942 pregnant Polish women were not sent home anymore, but forced to have abortions. If children were born, they were classified as schlechtrassig, and suffered in homes for foreign children.

Pieter Kuiper is correct in terms of Nazi policy regarding Polish workers in the Reich. Paragraph 7 of the "Duties of Male and Female Workers of Polish Nationality During their Stay in Germany" provided "anyone who has sexual intercourse with a German man or woman, or approaches them in any other improper manner, will be punished by death." The regulations were dated 8 March 1940, after the date of the 1939 quote given by Babar. See Robert Gellately, The Gestapo and German Society: Enforcing Racial Policy 1933-1945, Clarendon Press, Oxford [UK]: 1990, pp. 223, 232 specifically, and Chapter 8, "Racial Policy and Polish Workers, pp. 215-250 generally, which discusses a number of cases involving the execution of Polish workers for miscegenation.

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 18 Aug 2005 02:19

I know that Polish men who were convicted of having sexual relations with German women were punished with the death penalty in many cases.

But were Polish women who had sexual relations with German men likewise subject to the death penalty? Does anyone have any hard evidence of such cases?

My impression was that female Polish workers in Germany who fell pregnant, in many cases to German men, were simply sent home, or later forced to have abortions or else to give up their child after birth, so that their labour power would not be lost.

German women caught having sexual relations with Polish workers were often publicly humiliated, and subject to punishment by incarceration in a concentration camp, but were not subject to the death penalty, so far as I know.

It is normal human behaviour that, where one group has power over another, a male of the subordinate group who dares to have sexual relations with a female of the dominant group is subject to the most severe punishment, and the female of the dominant group to humiliation, whereas a female of the subordiante group who submits sexually to a male of the dominant group is not normally subject to punishment.

Indeed, it is normal human practice that the females of the subordinate group are sexually available to males of the dominant group. That was the case during the days of slavery in the United States, resulting in such phenomena as the numerous Afro-American descendants of Thomas Jefferson.

Molobo · Post by **Molobo** » 18 Aug 2005 02:42

But were Polish women who had sexual relations with German men likewise subject to the death penalty? Does anyone have any hard evidence of such cases?

Polish women engaging in romance with German men were sent to concentration camps.
http://ww2.tvp.pl/tvppl/11,2004051897200.strona

"Nie spotkali się więcej. Gerhard został wysłany na front. Wrócił załamany i wkrótce zmarł. Bronia trafiła do obozu, wszelki ślad po niej zaginął."
They never met again.Gerhard was sent on the front, he returned broken, and died.Bronia went to camp, every trace of her disappeared.

It is normal human behaviour that, where one group has power over another, a male of the subordinate group who dares to have sexual relations with a female of the dominant group is subject to the most severe punishment, and the female of the dominant group to humiliation, whereas a female of the subordiante group who submits sexually to a male of the dominant group is not normally subject to punishment.

:roll: Thankfully mills you don't define what is normal.I think the proper wording that is typical, not normal(as in "correct behaviour").
Your comparision with Jefferson is in my opinion weak attempt at portraying Nazi Reich as indifferent to other countries.Weak also since one of the goals of Nazi regime was extermination of lesser races.Thus logicaly a pregnancy would undermine their efforts...
As to the truth of the accusation you didn't give any sources...