Hitler's plans for Slavic nations

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David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 18 Aug 2005 02:53

Michael -- You wrote:
My impression was that female Polish workers in Germany who fell pregnant, in many cases to German men, were simply sent home, or later forced to have abortions or else to give up their child after birth, so that their labour power would not be lost.
Per a directive of Heydrich to Gestapo posts in the Reich, dated 3 Sept 1940:
frequently the Polish women are in a condition of dependence on these German men. Often the farmer's sons, or immediate bosses, in some cases even the owners themselves, initiate the sexual relations. And it is precisely those Polish women who fulfill their duties at work, and who want to retain their place of work, who become readily inclined to bend to the demands of their employers. For these reasons, sexual relations between German men and women workers of Polish nationality are not to be dealt with by special handling.

In such cases Polish women were arrested for three weeks, forced to change their place of work, and in cases of recidivism, sent to concentration camps. The German male was sent to a concentration camp for three months and in serious cases, "further state police measures" might be taken. Robert Gellately, The Gestapo and German Society: Enforcing Racial Policy 1933-1945, Clarendon Press, Oxford [UK]: 1990, pp. 232-234, citing to BAK: R58/1030, 88ff. for Heydrich's directive.
It is normal human behaviour that, where one group has power over another, a male of the subordinate group who dares to have sexual relations with a female of the dominant group is subject to the most severe punishment, and the female of the dominant group to humiliation, whereas a female of the subordiante group who submits sexually to a male of the dominant group is not normally subject to punishment.

Indeed, it is normal human practice that the females of the subordinate group are sexually available to males of the dominant group. That was the case during the days of slavery in the United States, resulting in such phenomena as the numerous Afro-American descendants of Thomas Jefferson.
Following the phrasing of your apposition, the Nazi practice was abnormal, or inhuman if you prefer.

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Post by michael mills » 18 Aug 2005 04:59

Yes, I agree that the National Socialist attitude to the women of subordinate ethnic groups was abnormal, in that it sought to prevent sexual access to them by German men.

Normally, the women of the subordinate group are regarded as part of the spoils of conquest.

I am reminded here of a very interesting observation that I read in a book by Ella Lingens-Reiner, an Austrian anti-Nazi who was sent to Auschwitz, where she functioned as a doctor for Jewish female prisoners under the supervision of Dr Mengele. (To my recollection, the book was called "Prisoners of Fear").

Lingens-Reiner relates how the Jewish female prisoners, who were usually quite young, teenagers or in their twenties, expressed to her their puzzlement at the harsh treatment meted out to them by the SS guards, who were in most cases very young men, of a similar age to them. They felt attracted to the young guards, in line with normal human nature, and their expectation was that the young men would be attracted to them, and would therefore treat them well and try to win their favour. They could not understand how the young SS guards could ignore their physical beauty and sexual attractiveness and be so cruel to them.

Lingens-Reiner surmised that the reason for the cruelty of the young SS guards was their sexual frustration. Under normal circumstances, young men having a group of young women under their control would enjoy sexual access to them, and thereby would develop affection for and normal human relations with them.

Since the guards were prevented from having such normal sexual relations by the strict racial policies of the organisation to which they belonged, they became frustrated. Unable to have normal sexual relations with the prisoners, they turned to beating them as a form of compensation.

Sounds like a rational explanation to me.

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Post by David Thompson » 18 Aug 2005 05:07

Let's get back on topic.

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Post by David Thompson » 18 Aug 2005 13:03

An off-topic exchange between Michael Mills and Memex which added nothing of value to the thread was deleted by the moderator -- DT.

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Post by Babar » 18 Aug 2005 19:56

I just don't think, especially as the war wen't on, anything was about race, it was just about, as they put it: "germany may capitulate, and if it does, we'll bring the rest of the world in flames with us". Alot of the atrocities and policies, especially in the east, could be explained much more accurately becuase of other reasons, reasons that seem to be less acknowledged.

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Post by Pieter Kuiper » 18 Aug 2005 21:04

Babar wrote:I just don't think, especially as the war wen't on, anything was about race.
"Race" was dominant in the Third Reich.

Hitler spent time on writing Deutschblütigkeitserklärungen.

In 1944, priority was given to exterminating the Jews of Hungary.

Other people were transported too: Volksdeutsche on westward trains Heim ins Reich. Poles were pushed further east. Polish priests were killed. Skulls were measured, selections were made. There was the Lebensborn breeding program of prize-Aryans.

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Post by philipp0408 » 18 Aug 2005 22:19

Pieter Kuiper wrote: There was the Lebensborn breeding program of prize-Aryans.

:lol:

The famous Lebensbornmyth. Often regarded as mass breading machines for super Aryans, but nothing more than a place, were women could give their childrenfrom SS.men birth in safe and good conditions.

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Post by Pieter Kuiper » 18 Aug 2005 22:56

philipp0408 wrote:The famous Lebensbornmyth. Often regarded as mass breading machines for super Aryans, but nothing more than a place, were women could give their children from SS.men birth in safe and good conditions.
Only if the mothers were Aryans.

Polish women were not welcome in Lebensborn establishments. The foundation had these aims:
  1. Rassisch und erbbiologisch wertvolle, kinderreiche Familien zu unterstützen;
  2. Rassisch und erbbiologisch wertvolle werdende Mütter unterzubringen und zu betreuen, bei denen nach sorgfültiger Prüfung der eigenen Familie und der Familie des Erzeugers durch das Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamt-SS anzunehmen ist, dass gleich wertvolle Kinder zur Welt kommen;
  3. für diese Kinder zu sorgen;
  4. für die Mütter der Kinder zu sorgen.
It is all about "racially and genetically valuable" children and women. Point 2 is about unwed mothers, that were to be carefully screened.

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Post by philipp0408 » 18 Aug 2005 23:43

Pieter Kuiper wrote:
philipp0408 wrote:The famous Lebensbornmyth. Often regarded as mass breading machines for super Aryans, but nothing more than a place, were women could give their children from SS.men birth in safe and good conditions.
Only if the mothers were Aryans.

Polish women were not welcome in Lebensborn establishments. The foundation had these aims:
  1. Rassisch und erbbiologisch wertvolle, kinderreiche Familien zu unterstützen;
  2. Rassisch und erbbiologisch wertvolle werdende Mütter unterzubringen und zu betreuen, bei denen nach sorgfültiger Prüfung der eigenen Familie und der Familie des Erzeugers durch das Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamt-SS anzunehmen ist, dass gleich wertvolle Kinder zur Welt kommen;
  3. für diese Kinder zu sorgen;
  4. für die Mütter der Kinder zu sorgen.
It is all about "racially and genetically valuable" children and women. Point 2 is about unwed mothers, that were to be carefully screened.
My post wasn ment on polish women. Just a general statement.

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Post by David Thompson » 19 Aug 2005 00:12

philipp0408 -- You wrote:
My post wasn ment on polish women. Just a general statement.
The topic is "Hitler's plans for Slavic nations." The Lebensborn program has no direct connection to it. To avoid misunderstandings, confine your posts to the topic being discussed.

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Post by Reviewer » 19 Aug 2005 04:01

Roberto wrote: The Hunger Plan also appeared on other occasions. For Göring it was a favorite subject. In November 1941 he told the Italian foreign minister Count Ciano that within a year 20 to 30 million people would starve to death in Russia. Maybe this was a good thing, for certain peoples needed to be reduced.[my emphasis] "[...]
As we all know there was no 20 millions to 30 millions that starved within a year so TBS.

Instead; For the Poles, total deportation to Siberia was planned within 10 years, from 1940 to 1950.
The plan was to advance the colonisation from West to east, deportating progressively all populations to Siberia on it`s way upp to the Oural.

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Post by David Thompson » 19 Aug 2005 04:46

Reviewer -- The readers here are looking for sourced information. They could care less about unsourced opinions, notions and claims. Please review the section rules at:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

and see that your future posts comply with them.

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Post by Reviewer » 19 Aug 2005 04:49

David Thompson wrote:Reviewer -- The readers here are looking for sourced information. They could care less about unsourced opinions, notions and claims. Please review the section rules at:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

and see that your future posts comply with them.
I`v got hard to remember the title of the document, it was in a French history book years ago, but since it had the name Himmler to it so...

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Post by michael mills » 19 Aug 2005 06:03

The source is a commentary by Erhard Wetzel, the Racial Expert of Rosenberg's Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, on the first draft of the Generalplan Ost prepared by the RSHA.

Wetzel's commentary was written in about April 1942, and from it we can reconstruct the basic thrust of the first draft of the Generalplan Ost, which has not been preserved.

The full text of Wetzel's commentary is published in this book:

"Vom Generalplan Ost zum Generalsiedlungsplan", herausgegeben von Czesław Madajczyk ; unter Mitarbeit von Stanisław Biernacki ... [et al.] (München ; New Providence : Saur, 1994)

The RSHA proposed to germanise certain parts of the Occupied Eastern Territories, including the Baltic States, Ingermanland(the area surrounding Leningrad), the Generalgouvernement, parts of Volhynia and the Zhitomir region, the Dnieper Bend, and the Crimea.

The germanisation was to be carried out by "ethnic reassignment" (Umvolkung) of a selected part of the existing population based on racial criteria, expulsion of the remainder across the Urals to Siberia, and the settlement of Germans from the Reich.

The RSHA estimated the total population to be expelled at 32 million. This was not the total native population of the areas to be germanised, but the majority that was assessed as not suitable for "ethnic reassignment".

They were to be replaced by some 10 million German settlers from the Reich (I am quoting this figure here from memory). Thus the population foreseen for the germanised areas, consisting of "ethnically reassigned" natives plus German settlers, was to be considerably lower than the existing level, resulting in what the RSHA planners considered to be a healthier population density.

The whole process was to take some considerable time, over 20 years.

Wetzel considered the plan unworkable, and made some trenchant criticisms of it. In the first place, he showed that the RSHA planners had greatly underestimated the size of the population to be expelled, since they had failed to take population growth into account (that assumption by Wetzel of future population growth in itself refutes the thesis that the German Government planned to reduce the native population by starvation).

In short, the number of persons to be expelled according to the criteria of the plan would be much greater than 32 million, making the whole thing much harder than the RSHA claimed.

Wetzel made another important comment at this point. He speculated whether the RSHA figure of 32 million projected expellees was too low because the planners had omitted the four million Jews of the regions selected for germanisation. He concluded that the Jews were not omitted from the total number, since the plan specifically stated that all the Jews were included among the expellees. That demonstrates that at the time the RSHA was drawing up its first draft of the Generalplan Ost, some time in late 1941 or early 1942, there was as yet no extermination plan in existence in relation to the Jews, only a plan to expel them across the Urals.

(Nevertheless, at the time Wetzel was writing his commentary, he was aware that killing of part of the Polish Jewish population had already begun, since he comments that Poles were afraid that what was being done to the Jews would also be done to them, and they needed to be reassured that that was not so).

In the second place, he showed that RSHA estimates of the number of Reich Germans available for resettlement in the East were wildly optimistic, and they would never be able to find enough settlers, making it improbable that the scheme could succeed.

In the third place, he rejects the notion of expelling the ungermanisable part of the native population across the Urals, on the grounds that that would just make them permananet enemies of Germany, and also reinforce the Slavic population already living in Siberia.

In place of the RSHA's expulsion scheme, Wetzel suggest forms of resettlement that will not create enemies of Germany. In the case of the Baltic peoples, he suggests that instead of pushing them over the Urals, they should be resettled all over German-occupied European Russia as a class of administrators, helping the Germans to rule the Russians.

Wetzel states that that role had been played by Baltics during the Tsarist period, and it could easily be reinstated. As administrators for the German rulers, enjoying a position of status and some power, the resettled Balts would become firmly attached to the new German domination of European Russia.

With regard to the ungermanisable part of the Polish population, Wetzel suggests that instead of expelling them to Siberia, they should be encouraged to emigrate to Brazil. Wetzels' rationale is that there had already been considerable emigration of Polish peasants to Brazil, and there was already a substantial Polish emigrant population there; furthermore, Brazil had vast amounts of unused land, more than enough to settle all the unwanted population of the Generalgouvernement.

Since Germany lost the war, it will never be known which variant of the Generalplan Ost would have been implemented if germany had not lost, The RSHA's or Wetzel's. However, Wetzel had shown that the RSHA plan was simply unworkable and based on faulty demographic assumptions.

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Post by michael mills » 19 Aug 2005 06:15

Further to my last post:

Once again the moderator's whip has lashed the wrong target.

It was not the hapless philipp0408 who introduced the red herring of Lebensborn onto this thread.

It was Peter Kuiper, when he wrote:
There was the Lebensborn breeding program of prize-Aryans.
His later post shows that he was well aware of the guidelines for the operation of the Lebensborn Foundation, and therefore must have been aware that what he initially wrote was a gross distortion of history.

Philipp0408 simply pointed out the falsehood contained in Kuiper's description of Lebensborn.

I agree that Lebensborn is a red herring on this thread. But at least lash the real culprit who introduced it.

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