Hitler's plans for Slavic nations

[michael mills]

Wetzel's suggestions for the overseas emigration of the majority of the Polish population deemed unsuitable for germanisation clearly related to the post-war period, ie after an expected German victory.

The Generalplan-Ost had a post-war time-frame of 30 years, so it is entirely conceivable that over such a period some 20 million or so Poles could be shipped to Brazil under peace-time conditions.

One need only think of the millions of Europeans who emigrated by sea to the United States and other overseas destinations in the decade immediately prior to the First World War. The available commercial passenger shipping was quite adequate to cope with that mass movement of people, with Hamburg being the major port through which the flow of emigrants from Eastern Europe proceeded.

Wetzel envisages Gdynia becoming the post-war equivalent of Hamburg, with a steady outflow of Polish emigrants proceeding through it.

The crucial point here is that there was not one single set of plans for the ethnic restructuring of Europe that was to take place after the expected German victory. Wetzel's suggestions contain alternatives to plans put forward by SS circles which, as can be seen from Wetzel's well-based criticisms, were simply unachievable, if only because of the lack of a source of German settlers anywhere near sufficient to fill the area projected for settlement.

In the event of Germany's not having been defeated, and having remained in control of Eastern Europe and most of European Russia, it is more likely that more moderate plans such as those suggested by Wetzel would have been implemented, since they had a more realistic basis than some of the more fantastic ideas put forward by some SS idealists.

It is likely that all of Western Poland could have been thoroughly germanised, utilising ethnic German settlers drawn from all over Eastern Europe, together with an assimilation of a part of the Polish population. The non-assimilable part of the Polish population of that area would have been moved east into a rump state, where the pressure of excess population could have been relieved through the organised overseas migration of large-numbers of Poles.

However, the very fact of concentrating ethnic Germans drawn from scattered settlements all over Eastern Europe in new German eastern territory taken from Poland would have made those ethnic Germans unavailable for settlement in other places in Eastern Europe, for example in former Soviet territory.

Since it is unlikely that Wetzel's suggestion of the return of millions of German emigrants from the Americas could have been achieved to any great extent, it is obvious that the grand schemes for German settlement on large areas of former Soviet territory could not have succeeded. However, it is possible that the Estonians and Latvians could have been substantially assimilated, given the long history of close contact between those peoples and Germany.

It should be remembered that the actual course of events resulted in large-scale post-war ethnic restructuring in Eastern Europe, involving the movement of tens of millions of people, of ethnic Germans moving westward to a reduced Germany, of ethnic Poles also moving westward into new Polish territory, and lesser movements of other peoples.

There was also a mass migration of millions of Europeans overseas, largely subsidised by governments. For example, Australia took in very large numbers of immigrants under an assited migration scheme, and I imagine there was even greater emigration to other destinations.

If the outcome of the war had been different, it is likely that there would have been population movements of a comparable scale to what actually did occur, but the composition and direction of the movements would have been different. For example, the German Government intended that there would be a general eastward movement of the Polish people, out of the Western part of Poland into areas further east; the actual outcome was that there was a westward movement of the Polish people, out of the Lebensraum of the Belorussian, Lithuanian and Ukrainian peoples into territories formerly inhabited by Germans.

The outcome of the war in Eastern Europe was an ethnic reordering, with an elimination of ethnic minorities and the resettlement of ethnic groups into compact territories. For example, the Lebensraum of the Polish people became homogeneous, whereas before the war the territory over which the Polish people was spread contained many other ethnic groups, Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Lithuanians, Germans etc.

The German Government had intended a similar ethnic reordering, with the elimination of the mixing of ethnic groups and their resettlement in defined areas, except of course that the reordering would have favoured the German people, extending the area of German settlement well to the east to cover large areas of territory formerly inhabited by Poles.

[memex]

For example, the Lebensraum of the Polish people became homogeneous, whereas before the war the territory over which the Polish people was spread contained many other ethnic groups, Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Lithuanians, Germans etc.

(bold by me)

First - Mills, you should avoid the using of the term lebensraum regarding to Polish territory. Lebensraum is the strictly German/nazi chauvinistic term and Poles have never used it for description of their land. Therefore you should use the term lebensraum when you speak about German chauvinist/nazi ideology only, unless you very like nazi terminology

Second - despite your claims, Poland is still not homogeneous. We have german, jewish, ukrainian, etc. minorities. They have their own organisations and even representatives in Polish parliament. So, you should learn more about Poland

The German Government had intended a similar ethnic reordering

(bold by me)

Third - Not very similar unfortunately. Jews and Slavs didn't place Germans in gas chambers

[Jan-Hendrik]

Well Memey , a quote of 98% ethnic poles in Poland was never reached before in history , if you compare it for example to II.republika ...


Jan-Hendrik

[memex]

Well Memey , a quote of 98% ethnic poles in Poland was never reached before in history , if you compare it for example to II.republika ...

I know it, however contemporary ethnic structure of Polish society is not only the result of expelling Germans from western provinces and Eastern Prussia based upon Jalta pact. Don't forget about Jews and Gypsies killed by nazis. In addition, many Ukrainians, Lituanians and Bellarussians who lived in Poland before WWII, after the war became soviet citizens, simply because USSR retrieved former Polish eastern provinces. As you see, mainly Germans and Soviets worked out contemporary ethnic structure of Polish society.

[Molobo]

It should be remembered that the actual course of events resulted in large-scale post-war ethnic restructuring in Eastern Europe, involving the movement of tens of millions of people,

Why Mills you have forgotten that during the war the actual course of events resulted in large scale mass killings by German state.

The German Government had intended a similar ethnic reordering,

Oh dear Mills, that is simply untrue.German government engaged in mass extermination campaigns, using gass chambers and concentration camps.German Reich classified whole nations as animals, organised campaigns of murder to destroy whole classes of intelligence among such nations, and used murder to depopulate their homelands.
Population transfer and changing borders in Soviet zone of control is hardly similiar...

[michael mills]

During the period of the Second Polish Republic, at a time when its territory contained minorities making up between 30 and 40 percent of the population (depending on whose figures you believe), there were political groups that wished to make Poland more ethnically homogeneous by expelling some minorities and assimilating others.

The National Democratic Party founded by Roman Dmowski, for example, preached the expulsion of the German and Jewish minorities and the forcible polonisation of the Slavic minorities, the Belorussians and Ukrainians.

In the end, the outcome desired by Dmowski was achieved during the war; both the Jews and the Germans disappeared from Poland.

And that outcome was achieved in the best possible way for the Poles, without their having to bear a burden of guilt for ethnic cleansing. First the German Government did the Poles' work for them by getting rid of the Jews, which loaded the Germans with the odium for that action, then the Allies approved the expulsion of the German minority from the Polish lands.

[memex]

In the end, the outcome desired by Dmowski was achieved during the war; both the Jews and the Germans disappeared from Poland.

And that outcome was achieved in the best possible way for the Poles, without their having to bear a burden of guilt for ethnic cleansing. First the German Government did the Poles' work for them by getting rid of the Jews, which loaded the Germans with the odium for that action, then the Allies approved the expulsion of the German minority from the Polish lands.

First - Dmowski and his party was not the whole Polish nation. It is true that he prefered national type of state, however exists his well known byword: "Polska bez Żydów, byłaby jak zupa bez pieprzu: bez smaku". ("Poland without Jews, would be like soup without pepper: without taste").
Second - I see, you just started to belive that WWII was the very good thing for Poles indeed. Cunning Poles took adventage of poor Germans and naive Allies. Very interesting theory. I like you more and more
Third - Stop your offensive comments regarding Poles. I understand that you are germanophil, however don't exaggerate with your anti-polish prejudices. Don't treat us like generally undereducated, envious mob. Maybe you should read some books written by (so disdained by you) Polish historians and victims of German occupation. Don't base only on your "credible" sources.

[Molobo]

The National Democratic Party founded by Roman Dmowski, for example, preached the expulsion of the German and Jewish minorities and the forcible polonisation of the Slavic minorities, the Belorussians and Ukrainians.

Dear Mills, you are totally wrong.Dmowski admired ethnic mix that made Poland.I have a scientific paper from Wroclaw University on Dmowski's national ideas which explains this ideology.I will give the exact title on Friday, since it is in my second home.

In the end, the outcome desired by Dmowski was achieved during the war; both the Jews and the Germans disappeared from Poland.

And that is why German minority has 2 permenant seats in Polish parliament.

First the German Government did the Poles' work for them by getting rid of the Jews, which loaded the Germans with the odium for that action,

Please stop your insults, there was no plan of extermination of Jews by Polish authorites, you also forget several things:\
Jewish people contributed much of Polish culture, science and business, so Poland lost valuable asset.
Many of those Jews were in fact people defining themselfs as Poles, whom German authorities classified as Jews.
3 milion ethnic Poles were murdered as well.
Poland was ruined and devasted by German authorities with over 650 billion of $ of damages.
Poland lost its historical lands such Wilno and Lwow, and was occupied for the next 45 years.

then the Allies approved the expulsion of the German minority from the Polish lands.

The statement is incorrect on all three points.First of all there was no expulsion but population transfer of Poles, Germans and other ethnic groups in Soviet zone of control.Second-the population transfer was made by Soviet forces, third it wasn't from Polish lands, but in all of Soviet zone of control, in regards to main area where Germans lived, these weren't Polish lands at the time, but German territory under Polish administration(in reality under Soviet for a long time).

[David Thompson]

Jan-Hendrik wrote to memex:

Well Memey

Molobo wrote:

Oh dear Mills

Please avoid this sort of false chumminess in posting here.

Everyone -- Direct your attention to the issues, not the poster. If the proposition is false, say why and do not provoke or be drawn into insulting personal exchanges.

[Musashi]

First the German Government did the Poles' work for them by getting rid of the Jews, which loaded the Germans with the odium for that action, then the Allies approved the expulsion of the German minority from the Polish lands.

So probably therefore out of 20,757 people who were awarded with Righteous Among the Nations award 5874 were Poles?
http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/rig ... table.html
It's 28,29%. I am completely sure the percentage would have been much higher, but:
- many Poles were executed with their families after somebody denounced them, they were hiding Jews. Therefore nobody could prove they were hiding them and their families were killed, so there were not witnesses. It is a big difference between Poland and Holland which has the second number of the people who were awarded. However they did not risk anything, because they were not considered "Untermenschen", etc. Therefore it can not be considered comparable.
- the next reason is Polish-Israeli relations were not good during the communism in Poland and many people afraided of contacting with the Israeli embassy.

What did you want to say us by your claim I quoted? That we are ungrateful towards Hitler and we should chant "Adi akbar" now?

Krzysiek

[Pieter Kuiper]

It is a big difference between Poland and Holland which has the second number of the people who were awarded. However they did not risk anything, because they were not considered "Untermenschen", etc.

They still risked their lives. They risked being sent to a concentration camp (not a safe place).

Helping Jews in hiding was a large part of the work of the Dutch resistance, and members of the resistance were executed, Untermensch or not.

[Musashi]

It is a big difference between Poland and Holland which has the second number of the people who were awarded. However they did not risk anything, because they were not considered "Untermenschen", etc.

They still risked their lives. They risked being sent to a concentration camp (not a safe place).

Helping Jews in hiding was a large part of the work of the Dutch resistance, and members of the resistance were executed, Untermensch or not.

Hi Pieter. I see you are a Dutchman in spite of you are living in Sweden, because you have Dutch first and last name.
Could you tell me if a Dutchman had saved a Jew he would have risked of being killed with his whole family? Was his entire family sent to a concentration camp or just only him?

Cheers,
Krzysiek

[David Thompson]

Musashi -- You asked:

Could you tell me if a Dutchman had saved a Jew he would have risked of being killed with his whole family? Was his entire family sent to a concentration camp or just only him?

Where kith and kin reprisals were used in Nazi-occupied Europe, the application seems to have been general. See:

"Other" War Crimes -- Kith and Kin
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14478

[David Thompson]

Michael -- You wrote:

And that outcome was achieved in the best possible way for the Poles, without their having to bear a burden of guilt for ethnic cleansing. First the German Government did the Poles' work for them by getting rid of the Jews, which loaded the Germans with the odium for that action, then the Allies approved the expulsion of the German minority from the Polish lands.

This is not an acceptable form of argument here. In the first place, you are trying to generalize from a group of people within a population to the population itself:
(1)

there were political groups that wished to make Poland more ethnically homogeneous by expelling some minorities and assimilating others.

therefore
(2)

And that outcome was achieved in the best possible way for the Poles, without their having to bear a burden of guilt for ethnic cleansing. First the German Government did the Poles' work for them by getting rid of the Jews

This form of "reasoning" is a well known type of logical fallacy:

Hasty Generalization
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/hasty.htm
Unrepresentative Sample
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/unrep.htm

In the second place, the overgeneralization is insulting to a national group, which is forbidden here:

Remarks containing insulting generalizations about nationalities, ethnic groups, societies or religious groups and practices are not permitted here. This includes remarks about collective responsibility.

Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

You have been previously warned about this practice in the past. Do not repeat your error.

[michael mills]

The objective fact is that the Polish nation as a collective benefited from the removal of two ethnic groups from its territory.

The removal of ethnic Germans meant that Poles were able to occupy and utilise land and other property that had formerly been occupied by Germans.

The removal of the Jewish minority meant that Poles were able to move into the socio-economic niche formerly occupied by the Jews, namely urban traders and artisans.

Before the Second World War, there was a recognised problem in Poland of excessive rural population, which was mainly Polish in ethnicity. That problem could not be solved because the socio-economic niches into which that excess agricultural population would normally have flowed were occupied by other ethnic groups.

The removal of those ethnic groups permitted the excess Polish agricultural population to flow into the niches vacated by them, thereby solving most of the above problem.

The flow of surplus Polish agricultural population into the urban socio-economic niche formerly occupied by Jews was actually initiated by the German administration during the war itself, with its policy of training Poles as artisans and industrial workers so that they could take the place of Jewish artisans who had been eliminated.

Regardless of the question of collective guilt, it is obvious that the German people has been burdened in the public mind with a moral responsibility for the exterminatory policies of its government of 60 years ago. On the other hand, the Polish people, which has drawn a net socio-economic benefit both from those exterminatory policies, and from the retribution for them, has borne no such moral burden.

Those are simple objective facts, not judgements.

I have not generalised. It may have been only a section of the Polish population that actively promoted the exclusion of the Jewish minority from Poland (and it was a pretty large section, given the extent and duration of the unofficial economic boycott of the Jews that was initiated in 1910 and lasted right up until 1939), but it is the entire Polish population that has benefited in aggregate from that exclusion.

If anyone disagrees with the proposition that the Polish population as a whole has on balance drawn a socio-economic benefit from the removal of the Jewish and German minporities from Polish territory, he can post the basis of his disagreement on this Forum. That would be preferable to wielding the big stick of censorship of statements that one does not like.