Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

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snpol
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#196

Post by snpol » 21 Jun 2021, 16:50

gebhk wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 12:55
only those that were recognized as criminal ones by Nuremberg Tribunal.
I have to point out there is nothing in the text you have quoted to say that the law applies only to goals, aims and actions that were recognised as criminal. It covers all goals, aims and actions that were recognised. So if i say that, like Nazi Germany, the USSR built tanks during the war, I would be falling foul of the law.
Indeed translation frequently is not an easy thing.
There is better translation (from my point of view) - It is forbidden ... to equate...
No doubt the key word in the Law is 'отождествление'.
ОТОЖДЕСТВЛЕНИЕ is a noun connected to verb ОТОЖДЕСТВЛЯТЬ (it is a result of action described by the verb).
Using Yandex translator
https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=%D0%B ... lang=ru-en
we see variants of translation of verb ОТОЖДЕСТВЛЯТЬ
1) to identify
2) to equate
3) to associate
Variant #2 is the most correct in this context.

There is another key fragment 'установленными приговором Международного военного трибунала'.
It is translated as 'established by the judgment of the International Military Tribunal'.
It would be better to translate it as 'established by the guilty verdict of the International Military Tribunal'.
In Russian word 'ПРИГОВОР' in this context means namely guilty verdict.
So the Law describes only actions recognised by the Nuremberg Tribunal as criminal ones.

Now I would like to recall the UNSCR 242 adopted in 1967 after the Six days war in the ME.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... lution_242
It requires
Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict
We see here 'territories' but not 'the territories'. It was made intentionally and Israel interprets it as requirement to withdraw from some territories.
The English version of the clause:
Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict
is given in French as:
Retrait des forces armées israéliennes des territoires occupés lors du récent conflit.
The difference between the two versions lies in the absence of a definite article ("the") in the English version, while the word "des" present in the French version in the expression "des territoires occupés" can only mean "from the occupied territories"...
The text of the resolution in Russian that is equally lawful is absolutely clear. 'Occupied territories' have only one meaning - all occupied territories.

So the law forbids to equate all goals, decisions and actions of Nazi leadership recognised as criminal by the Nuremberg Tribunal with goals, decisions and actions of Soviet leadership.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#197

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jun 2021, 12:11

Hi snpol,

I am not sure that 'territories' and 'the territories' have any functional difference in plain English.

Cheers,

Sid.


snpol
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#198

Post by snpol » 23 Jun 2021, 19:11

Hi Sid.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
23 Jun 2021, 12:11
I am not sure that 'territories' and 'the territories' have any functional difference in plain English.
But it is special English - diplomatic English that has own rules.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... lution-242
The most controversial clause in Resolution 242 is the call for the “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” This is linked to the second unambiguous clause calling for “termination of all claims or states of belligerency” and the recognition that “every State in the area” has the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”

The resolution does not make Israeli withdrawal a prerequisite for Arab action. Moreover, it does not specify how much territory Israel is required to give up. The Security Council did not say Israel must withdraw from “all the” territories occupied after the Six-Day war. This was quite deliberate. The Soviet delegate wanted the inclusion of those words and said that their exclusion meant “that part of these territories can remain in Israeli hands.” The Arab states pushed for the word “all” to be included, but this was rejected. They nevertheless asserted that they would read the resolution as if it included the word “all.” The British Ambassador who drafted the approved resolution, Lord Caradon, declared after the vote: “It is only the resolution that will bind us, and we regard its wording as clear.”

LineDoggie
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#199

Post by LineDoggie » 23 Jun 2021, 19:48

snpol wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 16:50

So the law forbids to equate all goals, decisions and actions of Nazi leadership recognised as criminal by the Nuremberg Tribunal with goals, decisions and actions of Soviet leadership.
So Occupied territory includes Kaliningrad, aka Königsberg but not to russians because they say so?

Hypocrites
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#200

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Jun 2021, 07:16

Hi snpol,

"Territories" very much does mean "all territories". (Indeed, your quote describes it as "unambiguous".) Any construction otherwise is purely contrived. Go through a list of each bit of "territory" concerned to see if it complies and you will see that it does. Israel was ultimately obliged to return to its pre-1967 boundaries, which themselves were several times as large as the UN initially recommended for Israel.

The problem is that it is linked to the second "unambiguous" quote, "every State in the area has the right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.” As long as no Palestinian state is recognized, there is nobody to guarantee this, which gives Israel time to continue "creating facts" by evicting Palestinians and building new settlements on the West Bank. This makes it politically increasingly difficult for any Israeli government to abide by Resolution 242 in the long term and gives it every incentive to obstruct the international recognition of a Palestinian State.

Cheers,

Sid.

snpol
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#201

Post by snpol » 24 Jun 2021, 19:22

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 07:16
Hi snpol,

"Territories" very much does mean "all territories". (Indeed, your quote describes it as "unambiguous".) Any construction otherwise is purely contrived. Go through a list of each bit of "territory" concerned to see if it complies and you will see that it does. Israel was ultimately obliged to return to its pre-1967 boundaries, which themselves were several times as large as the UN initially recommended for Israel.

The problem is that it is linked to the second "unambiguous" quote, "every State in the area has the right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.” As long as no Palestinian state is recognized, there is nobody to guarantee this, which gives Israel time to continue "creating facts" by evicting Palestinians and building new settlements on the West Bank. This makes it politically increasingly difficult for any Israeli government to abide by Resolution 242 in the long term and gives it every incentive to obstruct the international recognition of a Palestinian State.

Cheers,

Sid.
Alas we live is a cruel and imperfect World where selfish interests, principles like 'might is right' prevail. There are realities.
Returning to the Law, I would like to say that in Modern Russia a politician could be sentenced for 5 years for nothing.
Nikolay Platoshkin, professor, historian, former senior diplomat, the leader of movement for new socialism never called for any violent actions. But he during a talk show on TV carelessly suggested that he could try to be elected as a president. As a result he spent a year under home arrest and was sentenced for ... organization of future riots.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#202

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Jun 2021, 22:02

Hi snpol,

"Organization of future riots" sounds a lot like Orwell's 1984 "Thought Crimes".

Cheers,

Sid

LineDoggie
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#203

Post by LineDoggie » 25 Jun 2021, 01:03

snpol wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 19:22

''organization of future riots''.
Sounds like ''Knits grow into Lice...''
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

gebhk
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#204

Post by gebhk » 25 Jun 2021, 10:34

Hi Snpol

Just wanted to clarify a few discrepancies possibly caused by translation error. Firstly, you said that the definition of a historical crime in this context is defined by Nuremberg but this passage:
the sentences of the national, military or occupation tribunals based on the judgment of the International Military Tribunal to try and punish the main war criminals of the European Axis countries (Nuremberg Tribunal) or passed during the Great Patriotic War, World War II,
indicates that these crimes are defined by all judgements (? convictions) of international military/occupational tribunals mandated by the Nuremberg Trials AND all Soviet military tribunals during WW2.

Secondly, you said that the criminalisation of equating the Soviet Union to Nazi Germany is restricted to 1941-1945, but I see no such restriction in the text.

To return to the main 'thing', as I understand it, one is permitted to compare the USSR with Nazi Germany but not equate it? If so the trouble is that equation (or the opposite) is the obvious conclusion to any comparison whether it is actually explicitly made or not. One can say that 2+2=4 in Germany and 2+2=4 in the USSR but not that 4 (in Germany) = 4 (in the the USSR). Aside from the blatant hypocrisy of this, it can very easily be considered tantamount to making an equation, especially if what you say about the tribulations of Mr Platoshkin are true. If you say that 2+2=4 in Germany and the USSR you can easily be considered likely to say in the future that 4=4. Hence my previous comments about the usage of this type of pernicious legislation for all sorts of purposes other than those ostensibly given for its creation.
Last edited by gebhk on 25 Jun 2021, 11:12, edited 2 times in total.

gebhk
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#205

Post by gebhk » 25 Jun 2021, 10:43

Hi Sid
"Organization of future riots" sounds a lot like Orwell's 1984 "Thought Crimes".
More like 'Minority Report' by Philip K Dick and Spielberg's film of the same name, I would suggest :wink:

snpol
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#206

Post by snpol » 25 Jun 2021, 16:04

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 22:02
"Organization of future riots" sounds a lot like Orwell's 1984 "Thought Crimes".
Couldn't agree more.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... e-quashed/
According to the prosecution, Nikolay Platoshkin intended “to come to power unlawfully” for which “he started to incite his followers and other internet users via his audio-visual materials to “commit mass disorder and participate in it under the disguise of protest rallies.”
The absurdity of the charges against Nikolay Platoshkin, the speed of his court hearings and a blatant disregard for some basic fair trial guarantees is extraordinary even for the Kafkaesque Russian justice system.
However, Platoshkin is a left-wing politician. So Western MSM rarely mention him while he is a victim of political persecution.

snpol
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#207

Post by snpol » 25 Jun 2021, 16:25

gebhk wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 10:34
Just wanted to clarify a few discrepancies possibly caused by translation error. Firstly, you said that the definition of a historical crime in this context is defined by Nuremberg but this passage:
the sentences of the national, military or occupation tribunals based on the judgment of the International Military Tribunal to try and punish the main war criminals of the European Axis countries (Nuremberg Tribunal) or passed during the Great Patriotic War, World War II,
indicates that these crimes are defined by all judgements (? convictions) of international military/occupational tribunals mandated by the Nuremberg Trials AND all Soviet military tribunals during WW2.
I mentioned the Nuremberg Tribunal just for brevity.
gebhk wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 10:34

Secondly, you said that the criminalisation of equating the Soviet Union to Nazi Germany is restricted to 1941-1945, but I see no such restriction in the text.

It is not standalone law but amendment to existing Federal Law #80 "On the perpetuation of the Victory of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945". So it follows from the context.
gebhk wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 10:34
To return to the main 'thing', as I understand it, one is permitted to compare the USSR with Nazi Germany but not equate it? If so the trouble is that equation (or the opposite) is the obvious conclusion to any comparison whether it is actually explicitly made or not. One can say that 2+2=4 in Germany and 2+2=4 in the USSR but not that 4 (in Germany) = 4 (in the the USSR). Aside from the blatant hypocrisy of this, it can very easily be considered tantamount to making an equation, especially if what you say about the tribulations of Mr Platoshkin are true. If you say that 2+2=4 in Germany and the USSR you can easily be considered likely to say in the future that 4=4. Hence my previous comments about the usage of this type of pernicious legislation for all sorts of purposes other than those ostensibly given for its creation.
In Russian legal system (almost) everything is possible. However, comparison with facts on hands and equating as a general judgment are different matters.

gebhk
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#208

Post by gebhk » 26 Jun 2021, 08:36

I mentioned the Nuremberg Tribunal just for brevity.
Thanks for confirmation. I think this is an important issue because the inclusion of ALL Soviet military tribunal convictions into the picture, widens the scope of the law to cover every military crime rather than the broadly crimes against humanity scope of the Nuremberg trials. In other words the (alas, only on the face of it) farcical issue of the law prohibiting the goat-stealing of private Ivanov to be equated with the goat-stealing of privates Schultz or Rossi.
It is not standalone law but amendment to existing Federal Law #80 "On the perpetuation of the Victory of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945". So it follows from the context.
Thank you - that clarifies things perfectly
However, comparison with facts on hands and equating as a general judgment are different matters.
I agree. However, what we are really talking about is that I can say 2+2 (and 2+3 does not equal 4) but can't say 2+2=4. The point is that it is not unreasonable to accuse someone who says of 2+2 of, at the very least, implying 4 and if the similarities are so similar as to make no difference, is there really any difference between 2+2 and 4? And a judge not a 'mathematician' will decide on that presumably? Which, I would suggest, would discourage all but the most determined from addressing these issues at all which, no doubt, is the whole point.

While the added scope for persecution of political opponents is no doubt a welcome bonus for the government, all you have said confirms me in the suspicion that there are two main objectives of this legislation, neither of them making for good law and certainly not making for good history (which is our concern here).

1) Playing to the gallery. Making unnecessary laws to impress supporters that one is 'doing something about' the bete noir of the month, rarely leads to anything good. The UKs 'Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 is a shining example just why.

2) Desperately avoiding the establishment of the responsibility of the USSR (and therefore its legal successor, the Russian Federation) for its various crimes in the manner that of Germany was. If such responsibility is established, it would make the state liable for restitution, not least for the industrial-scale larceny of private and public property that took place in Poland and, i can only presume, other countries overrun by the Red Army. Given its financial condition, this is not something the Government (or any government!) would relish, I'd bet. The almost touchingly pathetic insistence on the 'humanitarian mission' and the inclusion of all military crimes, even petty ones, in this bracket seems to support this view. In this regard, I think your comparison with the Polish 'Holocaust Laws' is right on the money.
Last edited by gebhk on 26 Jun 2021, 16:31, edited 4 times in total.

gebhk
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#209

Post by gebhk » 26 Jun 2021, 09:09

However, Platoshkin is a left-wing politician. So Western MSM rarely mention him while he is a victim of political persecution.
He does indeed appear less 'user friendly' for western media. I can almost see Wincenty Witos laughing in commiseration. At his entirely politically-motivated trial, I seem to recall Witos was accused of 'paying his taxes at the last moment and unwillingly' as 'evidence' of his anti-government activities. Even the presiding judge allegedly stifled a giggle at that.

gebhk
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Re: Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

#210

Post by gebhk » 26 Jun 2021, 10:24

Hi Sid,
I am not sure that 'territories' and 'the territories' have any functional difference in plain English.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. In plain English there is a functional difference which is why the definite (and indefinite) article exists. 'The territories' means, unambiguously, all the territories described. 'Territories' means (ambiguously) all or some of the territories described. 'A territory' means one of but not all the territories described. Though what any of this has to do with the price of (President Putin's) beef, I'm confused.

Bestest
K

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