Putin to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal

[gebhk]

The legislation in question is not something exceptional.

Which does not make it ipso facto the right thing to do. I'm glad you've brought up the Polish legislation because it is, I would suggest, a classic example of financial self-defence rather than the result of any nationalistic motivation.

Soviet crimes in Germany and elsewhere in Europe

I think you are being far too conservative - I would suggest the crimes committed against the people of the Russian Empire should be considered in the first instance, not least both because they were the first and most numerous victims of the regime.

Also scale of war crimes (by the Axis powers) on the Soviet soil should be taken into account.

Debatable in the case of crimes committed in Germany - if I murder your father does that make it OK for you to murder mine? And in the case of crimes committed against citizens of non-axis counties, indeed in many cases before the Soviet Union was ever invaded by its erstwhile allies, it is utterly irrelevant.

In fact the Soviet Union remained just Russia by another name.

There we agree - albeit the Russian Empire is perhaps more accurate term.

I dare to disagree. They are not so obvious, self-evident, as you suggest.

I would suggest the facts speak for themselves. It would be difficult to find any state, let alone a major one, that resembled the Nazi regime more in its methods than Stalin's Soviet Union.

[snpol]

Hi snpol,

You post,

"Denial of the facts established by the verdict of the International Military Tribunal for the trial and punishment of the main war criminals of the European Axis countries, approval of the crimes established by this verdict, as well as the dissemination of knowingly false information about the activities of the USSR during the Second World War, about veterans of the Great Patriotic War, committed publicly.

The dissemination of information expressing obvious disrespect for society about the days of military glory and memorable dates of Russia associated with the defense of the Fatherland, as well as the desecration of the symbols of military glory of Russia, insult to the memory of the defenders of the Fatherland or humiliation of the honor and dignity of a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, committed publicly."

I hadn't realized quite how far the Putin regime had already gone in making historical debate potentially prosecutable. On those grounds quite a few AHF contributors would be at risk of a knock on the door at 0300 from the police, if they lived in today's Russia. Most of us on AHF just have to worry about the heavy hand of an unsympathetic Moderator closing a thread or possibly suspending us.

Fortunately, as yet, there still seems to be a flow of some revisionist information coming out of Russia from named sources, but the threat to them is there.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,
in real life hardly many are at risk to be prosecuted. Mr.Navalny was fined (about $10000) for insults toward 95yo veteran. From my point of view, mr.Navalny was not right and had to bring sincere apologies.

[snpol]

The legislation in question is not something exceptional.

Which does not make it ipso facto the right thing to do. I'm glad you've brought up the Polish legislation because it is, I would suggest, a classic example of financial self-defence rather than the result of any nationalistic motivation.

I only noted that the law in question should be regarded in the context of similar legislative acts. Are they right or wrong - it is a separate question.

Soviet crimes in Germany and elsewhere in Europe

I think you are being far too conservative - I would suggest the crimes committed against the people of the Russian Empire should be considered in the first instance, not least both because they were the first and most numerous victims of the regime.

Crimes happened in the Soviet union are (at least from formal point of view) a Russian internal business. On many points historical estimates were given even in Soviet times and now after the fall of the communist regime in fact all pages in history are marked as black, white or grey (using 50 shades). It is not clear what else Moscow should do.

Also scale of war crimes (by the Axis powers) on the Soviet soil should be taken into account.

Debatable in the case of crimes committed in Germany - if I murder your father does that make it OK for you to murder mine? And in the case of crimes committed against citizens of non-axis counties, indeed in many cases before the Soviet Union was ever invaded by its erstwhile allies, it is utterly irrelevant.

I meant that one should compare scale of war crimes in the Soviet union and on the German soil. It would be fair.

In fact the Soviet Union remained just Russia by another name.

There we agree - albeit the Russian Empire is perhaps more accurate term.

Russia is simple and neutral term but you may use the term that you prefer.

I dare to disagree. They are not so obvious, self-evident, as you suggest.

I would suggest the facts speak for themselves. It would be difficult to find any state, let alone a major one, that resembled the Nazi regime more in its methods than Stalin's Soviet Union.

First of all facts should be established, proved. Allegations can not be used instead of facts.
There was an allegation that there were mass rapes in Hungarian city of Gyor on Good Friday 1945. The banned forumist - Sergey proved that the allegation was false, untrue, invented.
As for your comparison then btw the first concentration camp was created during the Boer war. Let's also recall the Algerian war. That time Algeria was regarded by Paris as a part of France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_ ... of_torture

D. Huf, in his seminal work on the subject, argued that the use of torture was one of the major factors in developing French opposition to the war.[116] Huf argued, "Such tactics sat uncomfortably with France's revolutionary history, and brought unbearable comparisons with Nazi Germany

Crimes committed by the French before and during the war against Algerian combatants and unarmed civilians included indiscriminate bombings and shootings into civilian crowds, rape, imprisonment without food in small cells, throwing prisoners out of helicopters to their death or into the sea with concrete on their feet, and burying people alive.
Torture methods included beatings, mutilations, hanging by the feet or hands, torture by electroshock, waterboarding, sleep deprivation and sexual assaults.[105][109][110][111] 2 million Algerians were also deported in internment camps, with some being forced into labour.

Claude Bourdet had denounced these acts on 6 December 1951, in the magazine L'Observateur, rhetorically asking, "Is there a Gestapo in Algeria?"

Only

In 2018 France officially admitted that torture was systematic and routine.

More than half century was needed to French authorities to recognise only apparent facts.

[gebhk]

Crimes happened in the Soviet union are (at least from formal point of view) a Russian internal business

They most certainly are not when those crimes were committed against non-Russian people outside of Russia. In any event, formally, precisely because states cannot be relied upon to deal with such matters adequately, the International Criminal Court which the majority of the international community supports, was set up and Crimes against Humanity were defined.

In any event, regardless of all the semantics, it does not make the victims, Russian or otherwise, any less deserving of recognition and them and their families less deserving of rehabilitation and compensation.

I meant that one should compare scale of war crimes in the Soviet union and on the German soil. It would be fair.

As I said, that is debatable and is hotly debated at many a trial for that matter. However it is neither fair nor relevant to crimes committed against other parties many, if not the majority, committed before there was any military conflict with Germany.

Russia is simple and neutral term but you may use the term that you prefer

Thank you. However, while simple, it certainly is not neutral from the perspective of Ukraina, Belarus, Lithuania, Georgia to name but a few of the many nations that made up and/or make up the Russian Empire/Soviet Union.

First of all facts should be established, proved. Allegations can not be used instead of facts.

The enormity of Soviet crimes has been established beyond any reasonable doubt, Crimes such as the Katyn murders or the Polish Operation of the NKWD or the deportations/forcible transfers of populations - all defined as crimes against humanity by the Rome Statutes are but some examples.

With regard to concentration camps etc (I am curious why you mentioned them unprompted?) all of that is very true but not really relevant. A criminal is not exculpated of his crime just because others have committed similar or worse crimes

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi snpol

You post, "in real life hardly many are at risk to be prosecuted."

I would disagree. The definitions are so loose that many people could be at risk just for raising legitimate historical questions.

What is true is that the Russian state only has to prosecute a few to intimidate most of the others into silence.

As I understand it, Navalny made absolutely no attack on the veteran's war record. His complaint was that in taking part in a Putin-sponsored video in favour of changing the Russian Constitution so that Putin could effectively become President-for-Life, the old man was being used as a stooge for the Putin regime (certainly arguable) and that he was advocating something then traitorous - breaking the existing constitution. Nor was Navalny only attacking this one old man. He was attacking all the celebrities, politicians, sportspeople, singers, advocacy groups, etc., etc., who wanted to make Putin President-for-Life.

If Navalny said anything against the veteran's war record, what was it?

Cheers,

Sid.

[snpol]

The enormity of Soviet crimes has been established beyond any reasonable doubt, Crimes such as the Katyn murders or the Polish Operation of the NKWD or the deportations/forcible transfers of populations - all defined as crimes against humanity by the Rome Statutes are but some examples.

With regard to concentration camps etc (I am curious why you mentioned them unprompted?) all of that is very true but not really relevant. A criminal is not exculpated of his crime just because others have committed similar or worse crimes

And what Russian government should do from your point of view? Crimes that you mentioned were recognised as crimes by Moscow. They happened long ago - about 80 years ago, or so. Those personally responsible died. Now it is just history. Indeed other countries, governments committed similar or worse crimes. And I agree that it can not be used as an excuse. So what should be done from practical point of view?

[snpol]

Hi snpol

You post, "in real life hardly many are at risk to be prosecuted."

I would disagree. The definitions are so loose that many people could be at risk just for raising legitimate historical questions.

What is true is that the Russian state only has to prosecute a few to intimidate most of the others into silence.

As I understand it, Navalny made absolutely no attack on the veteran's war record. His complaint was that in taking part in a Putin-sponsored video in favour of changing the Russian Constitution so that Putin could effectively become President-for-Life, the old man was being used as a stooge for the Putin regime (certainly arguable) and that he was advocating something then traitorous - breaking the existing constitution. Nor was Navalny only attacking this one old man. He was attacking all the celebrities, politicians, sportspeople, singers, advocacy groups, etc., etc., who wanted to make Putin President-for-Life.

If Navalny said anything against the veteran's war record, what was it?

Cheers,

Sid.

Indeed mr.Navalny used insulting words toward people shown in agitprop video intended to promote amendments to the Constitution. The amendments contain mostly formal declarations and the very purpose of the amendments was to give mr.Putin an ability to be elected in 2024 and 2030. But mr.Navalny being a politician and a jurist had to weight every word he sounds. He had to separate people in the video. Mr.Navalny called them all as traitors and paid lackeys. Thus he made a big mistake. From formal point of view mr.Navalny violated the Law.
Dura Lex Sed Lex.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Snpol,

You post, "Mr.Navalny called them all as traitors and paid lackeys. Thus he made a big mistake. From formal point of view mr.Navalny violated the Law."

How was he breaking the law? I ask again, if Navalny said anything against the veteran's war record, what was it?

They were all undoubtedly lackeys of Putin if they wanted to make him effectively President-for-Life. That is hardly an arguable point.

Likewise, the Russian Constitution then made no provision for Putin or anyone else to be effectively President-for-Life, so it would have been a betrayal of that Constitution to advocate it.

Personally, I don't believe that Russia is so lacking in talent that one corrupt man who manipulates the Constitution has to hold office effectively for life. That would be Russia's private misery, if it wasn't for the fact that the same man is interfering in many of his neighbours.

Navalny may or may not be the solution to Russia's serious Putin problem, but one thing is for sure - more Putin is not the solution to Russia's serious Putin problem!

Why do Russians think so little of themselves that they put up with autocratic government for generation after generation? It has brought them misery after misery and, despite possessing the greatest natural wealth on the planet, little of it ever seems to reach the Russian population, which is again declining.

Surely Russians deserve better?

Cheers,

Sid.

[snpol]

Hi Snpol,

You post, "Mr.Navalny called them all as traitors and paid lackeys. Thus he made a big mistake. From formal point of view mr.Navalny violated the Law."

How was he breaking the law? I ask again, if Navalny said anything against the veteran's war record, what was it?

On the video 95yo decorated veteran was in military uniform and spoke about matters related to the war. Mr.Navalny called him along with other people as traitor and paid lackey. Mr.Navalny insulted people who appeared in the agitprop video and the veteran was among them. Don't you really understand what has happened? It seems to me that you understand it pretty well. The Law doesn't distinguish personal insults from insults of a group that includes a person defended from insults. Mr.Navalny was well aware that the veteran is seen on the video and he had to separate him from others. He could say something like - I respect very much decorated veteran, wish him health and all the best. But others are traitors and paid lackeys of Putin's regime. In this case there would be no problem.
From my point of view, indeed the majority in the video are people closely connected to corrupted ruling elites, to the party of Crooks and Thieves as mr.Navalny calls them. But anyway, the veteran should not be insulted - no matter personally or as a member of a group.
There is another Man (I write this word from the capital letter) who was insulted by mr.Navalny. He is Vasily Lanovoy - 85yo famous very, very popular actor. Recently he died from Covid19. No doubt he is not a traitor or/and paid lackey. He merely above it. Despite his fantastic popularity he was very modest in real life.

They were all undoubtedly lackeys of Putin if they wanted to make him effectively President-for-Life. That is hardly an arguable point.

Personally I never voted for mr.Putin or his party but mr.Putin is sufficiently popular. At least was popular during the last elections. So millions, ten millions sincerely voted for mr.Putin. It is their right. Many Russian intellectuals do support mr.Putin because they recognise his role as national leader. They have right for freedom of speech, have right to express own opinion freely.

Likewise, the Russian Constitution then made no provision for Putin or anyone else to be effectively President-for-Life, so it would have been a betrayal of that Constitution to advocate it.

From formal point of view mr.Putin could be elected only twice and in 1936 there will be another president in Russia. But from my point of view it really doesn't matter. Power in Russia effectively belongs to the Big Money. The ruling elites have at their disposal the whole army of paid lackeys - judges, prosecutors, police, special services, journalists, politologists, polit-technologists. During 4 years (2008-12) mr.Putin was just a PM. And he could become PM again in 2024 and remain PM-for-Life without violation of the Constitution having at hand puppet 'president'.

Personally, I don't believe that Russia is so lacking in talent that one corrupt man who manipulates the Constitution has to hold office effectively for life. That would be Russia's private misery, if it wasn't for the fact that the same man is interfering in many of his neighbours.

As I have said power in Russia really belongs to oligarchs and clans of corrupted officials surrounded by the whole army of paid lackeys. Political system in Russia is far from primitive dictatorship. It is distributed system of power with president as a supreme arbiter to resolve contradictions, conflicts between clans of officials and oligarchical structures.

Navalny may or may not be the solution to Russia's serious Putin problem, but one thing is for sure - more Putin is not the solution to Russia's serious Putin problem!

Mr.Navalny from my point of view is a crook himself and would be just a lackey of oligarchs being elected. Mr.Navalny is in fact very convenient opposition leader. He is not very popular and hasn't even microscopic electoral chances.

Why do Russians think so little of themselves that they put up with autocratic government for generation after generation? It has brought them misery after misery and, despite possessing the greatest natural wealth on the planet, little of it ever seems to reach the Russian population, which is again declining.

It is a big separate theme.
Millions are paid lackeys of the regime and are interesting in its survival.
Many have much to lose (or fear that they could lose) in the case of any changes in political system.
There is a lot of brainwashed Russians
And there are politically indifferent people.
Add to it polit-technologies.
So even technically correct elections could be in fact senseless as the result is predefined.

Surely Russians deserve better?

Cheers,

Sid.

I hope that yes but mr.Putin is not the worst variant. There are much more worse alternatives.

PS. Edited to add a question. Who among Western leaders current or previous ones could be regarded as a model for ideal leader of Russia? Mssrs. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Blair, Brown, Cameron, Johnson? Or somebody else?

[LineDoggie]

https://dailypopulous.com/2021-05-07-ni ... legal.html

Putin Looks to Make Equating Stalin, USSR to Hitler, Nazi Germany Illegal
Authored by newsweek.com and submitted by Twoweekswithpay
The Daily Populous Friday May 7th, 2021 day edition

Russian legislators are looking to ban people from likening the behavior of the Soviet Army and Joseph Stalin to the actions of Nazi soldiers and Adolf Hitler. Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, instructed the bill to be introduced after a meeting of the Presidential Council for Culture and Arts in October. Opponents of the legislation have criticized it for infringing on free speech. However, the bill's backers argue it's not about cracking down on what people say but about recognizing Russia's contribution to Hitler's downfall.

"The Soviet army is a liberator, and therefore a benefactor of Europe," Elena Yampolskaya, the chair of the Committee on Culture, said in a statement. "It is possible and necessary to discuss any specific situations, facts, documents. Just not forgetting that the Soviet Union, the Russian people fought the main struggle against the universal evil of Nazism."

Russia's involvement in World War II is a complicated story that puts the country on both the Axis and Allied sides. For nearly two years, Russia collaborated with Germany as both forces moved through Eastern Europe, bringing with them death, destruction, brutal occupation, and the shipping of people away to forced labor and concentration camps. However, after Germany invaded Russia in 1941, the Nazi regime became an enemy of Russia as its army joined the fight against Hitler. Russia's winter and the army's relentlessness during the Battle of Stalingrad delivered a heavy blow to Hitler's forces and is considered by many historians to be a major turning point in the war in favor of the Allied forces.

The Soviet army was also responsible for liberating Warsaw, Krakow and Auschwitz, the most infamous Nazi concentration camp where more than a million people were killed. While Russia helped bring release to those suffering in concentration camps at the hands of the Nazis, its leader Stalin is considered one of the most ruthless figures in history. He created the Gulag, a forced labor camp system that imprisoned about 18 million people and subjected them to brutal conditions. After the war, he claimed swaths of Europe for his own and lowered an "iron curtain" down, blocking East Berlin off from the world and starting the Cold War.

Putin has been trying to crack down on criticism of Russia's actions during World War II for years. In 2014, he signed a law that made distorting the Soviet Union's role a criminal offense punishable by up to five years in prison. "It is our duty to defend the truth about the victory; otherwise what shall we say to our children if a lie, like a disease, spreads all over the world?" Putin said in a speech in January 2020. "We must set facts against outrageous lies and attempts to distort history ... This work is our duty as a winning country and our responsibility to the future generations."

Mark Kramer, director of the Cold War Studies Project at Harvard's Davis Center, acknowledged in 2020 that the heroism of the Soviet soldiers is "undeniable" but said the "much darker side of the Soviet war effort" is also unavoidable. He called it "unfortunate" that Russia only tolerates "glorious images and speeches" and said that a "more even-handed discussion" would be in the nation's best interest.

The bill, which was published in the State Duma's records on Wednesday, blamed the media, including publications in Russia, for making "derogatory" statements about the Soviet Union's role in World War II. It would forbid people from publicly comparing actions of the USSR's military and leaders to those of the Nazi's leadership, including in the media and on the internet.

Its authors said the goal was to put a legislative barrier between "obvious insults to our grandfathers and great-grandfathers," while "preserving space for historical research" and scientific discussions, according to a translation of the bill. "The family has its black sheep. Can particulars discredit the whole? Never. Good remains good, evil remains evil, " Yampolskaya said in a statement.

Well, Putin's a dictator like Stalin and Hitler (Add mustache) and wants to invade and annex other nations into a neu soviet union

Katyn was a Russian atrocity much as Babi Yar was a German one the difference was the uniform color worn by the murderers

[LineDoggie]

Crimes happened in the Soviet union are (at least from formal point of view) a Russian internal business.

As for your comparison then btw the first concentration camp was created during the Boer war. Let's also recall the Algerian war. That time Algeria was regarded by Paris as a part of France.

the excuse for genocide and totalitarianism didnt work at nuremburg, you're whataboutism aside

[LineDoggie]

PS. Edited to add a question. Who among Western leaders current or previous ones could be regarded as a model for ideal leader of Russia? Mssrs. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Blair, Brown, Cameron, Johnson? Or somebody else?

Again typical russian Whataboutism

[snpol]

PS. Edited to add a question. Who among Western leaders current or previous ones could be regarded as a model for ideal leader of Russia? Mssrs. Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Blair, Brown, Cameron, Johnson? Or somebody else?

Again typical russian Whataboutism

Apparently you fear to look silly and dare not to answer the question. Though ... in fact you answered. So, as I understand, no one mentioned glorious leader is better than mr.Putin.

[snpol]

Crimes happened in the Soviet union are (at least from formal point of view) a Russian internal business.

As for your comparison then btw the first concentration camp was created during the Boer war. Let's also recall the Algerian war. That time Algeria was regarded by Paris as a part of France.

the excuse for genocide and totalitarianism didnt work at nuremburg, you're whataboutism aside

Apparently you mean German city of Nürnberg. There is a prison in US naval base in Guantanamo where people are being kept for years without trial. I strongly doubt that any US official will appear in Nürnberg anytime soon not as a tourist, while Guantanamo prison is internal US business ... Though ... Guantanamo is in Cuba. So probably evil Cuban commies are responsible.

[LineDoggie]

Crimes happened in the Soviet union are (at least from formal point of view) a Russian internal business.

As for your comparison then btw the first concentration camp was created during the Boer war. Let's also recall the Algerian war. That time Algeria was regarded by Paris as a part of France.

the excuse for genocide and totalitarianism didnt work at nuremburg, you're whataboutism aside

Apparently you mean German city of Nürnberg. There is a prison in US naval base in Guantanamo where people are being kept for years without trial. I strongly doubt that any US official will appear in Nürnberg anytime soon not as a tourist, while Guantanamo prison is internal US business ... Though ... Guantanamo is in Cuba. So probably evil Cuban commies are responsible.

Again, Whataboutism typical of your ilk like the internet research agency in St Petersburg


Nuremburg trials, defence
Nürnberg trials, Nürnberg also spelled Nuremberg
https://www.britannica.com/event/Nurnberg-trials