Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany
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Kunikov wrote:This proves what exactly?germangirl wrote:Hum.......lets see mabye its because my grandmother was raped at age 14 by Russian soldiers coming through East Germany...unless you want to call that propaganda
Kunikov:David Thompson wrote:Everyone -- Our readers are looking for sourced information about the topic -- documents or witness accounts showing mass rapes by Soviet forces at the end of WWII resulted from an intentional government plan. Posters who have specific sourced information are invited to provide it. We can do without inflammatory opinions, unsourced general allegations, and commentaries on off-topic matters.
I agree with your comment, and sense your frustriation, however, I would offer that you allow David to take care of it.
Penn44
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There is no doubt that there were a large number of rapes which followed the Soviet conquest of northeastern Germany. The question in this thread is whether these crimes were the intended result of a general plan of subjugation. So far, no posters have been able to come up with any evidence of pre-planning other than the propaganda rants of Ilya Ehrenberg. I see no reason to question the fact that rapes occurred. There is a question as to the actual number of victims, and there is a general lack of evidence on the issue of whether the rapes were intended, authorized or ratified by the Soviet high command. See, for example:
The Soviet Army in Germany in Soviet Documents
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10551
The Soviet Army in Germany in Soviet Documents
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10551
Sorry for bumping, but...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.html
The source is military historian Anthony Beevor, who has studied the Soviet archives. It is estimated that 2 million German women and girls were raped, but this info. has not been established as a historical fact as it's taboo to talk about it and was even more so in the aftermath of WWII and during the Cold War. The winners write history and so they did. But the inconvenient fact about Red Army atrocities involving murder, massrape, plundering, etc., in Eastern Europe and in Germany was apparently never considered "important" or "necessary" to include in WWII-history, as it could damage relations to Soviet/Russia (why else would one not include it?) I, at least, never learned about the Red Army atrocities when I went to school. Did you?Kunikov wrote:There is no real source that '2 million rapes' took place, and the German 'evacuation,' at least from the reading I did on it, is in my opinion exaggerated.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1939174.stmThe extent of the Red Army's indiscipline and depravity emerged as the author studied Soviet archives for his forthcoming book Berlin, to be published in April by Viking.
Mr Beevor, whose previous book Stalingrad became a best-seller, says in Berlin alone it was estimated up to 130,000 women were raped, of whom up to 10,000 committed suicide.
Altogether two million German women are believed to have been raped and almost half of those suffered gang rape.
One woman was raped by 23 soldiers.
Mr Beevor said he was shocked by what he found during his research of German and Soviet archives.
- phylo_roadking
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On the issue of the Soviet archives - it has been raised at times in other threads that access to the Soviet Archives can be "streamined" and of course access is not complete...
What IS important to realise that if Beevor found ANYTHING, then its significant; because he COULD have been kept away from it, or it could already have been culled. The mere fact that material is still THERE is indictment enough that the Soviets recognised the events and their scope and accepted them as recordable events. Unit offciers, political officers etc. could simply have been ordered not to report on them, and the material would never have entered the paperchain. But for people to find that material now, in whatever quantity, means that it was reported up the chain and can't be blown off.
It doesn't matter which of the 50 stab wounds in Caesar killed him, one stab wound is enough to make a death murder.
What IS important to realise that if Beevor found ANYTHING, then its significant; because he COULD have been kept away from it, or it could already have been culled. The mere fact that material is still THERE is indictment enough that the Soviets recognised the events and their scope and accepted them as recordable events. Unit offciers, political officers etc. could simply have been ordered not to report on them, and the material would never have entered the paperchain. But for people to find that material now, in whatever quantity, means that it was reported up the chain and can't be blown off.
It doesn't matter which of the 50 stab wounds in Caesar killed him, one stab wound is enough to make a death murder.
- Ironmachine
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Still, that such events were reported may prove that they happened, but do not prove that they were pre-planned.What IS important to realise that if Beevor found ANYTHING, then its significant; because he COULD have been kept away from it, or it could already have been culled. The mere fact that material is still THERE is indictment enough that the Soviets recognised the events and their scope and accepted them as recordable events. Unit offciers, political officers etc. could simply have been ordered not to report on them, and the material would never have entered the paperchain. But for people to find that material now, in whatever quantity, means that it was reported up the chain and can't be blown off.
- phylo_roadking
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Indeed - but I was rather more concerned with the
when i wrote the above. The numbers may be debateable - but as David says, the "event" itself cannot...especially when in cases like those found by Beevor, the institutional perpetrator retained the evidence on record!There is no real source that '2 million rapes' took place
I agree...I do not believe the rapes, etc., were pre-planned, but propagandists such as the Soviet Jew Ilya Ehrenburg sure did know what kind of a message they sent to the troops with their extremely anti-German propaganda. I also remember reading a quote of Stalin in which he brushed off the actions of the Soviet troops as "soldiers just having a little bit of fun" or something like that. So it's known that it was known amongst Soviet officers and generals, and even by Stalin and his buddies back in Moscow.Ironmachine wrote:Still, that such events were reported may prove that they happened, but do not prove that they were pre-planned.What IS important to realise that if Beevor found ANYTHING, then its significant; because he COULD have been kept away from it, or it could already have been culled. The mere fact that material is still THERE is indictment enough that the Soviets recognised the events and their scope and accepted them as recordable events. Unit offciers, political officers etc. could simply have been ordered not to report on them, and the material would never have entered the paperchain. But for people to find that material now, in whatever quantity, means that it was reported up the chain and can't be blown off.
I'm also attaching a picture I found illustrating a typical rape-scene in Germany during 1944-1945. Notice that the soldiers look Asiatic and Mongrel, which - in my opinion - confirms that the Asiatic-looking soldiers were in general more cruel than the Russians. I've also been told by a friend of mine who had a grandfather that had lived in East Germany, that one was told those days to stay away from the "Asiatic looking" soldiers as they were more violent and cruel.
[The nauseatingly crude, grotesque, and pornographic image you've posted has been deleted - Please do not post anything of the sort to this forum again. As for your comment that this cartoonish image "confirms" that "Asiatic-looking soldiers were in general more cruel..." - that's absurd. It would an absurd and racist generalization even if you'd posted a genuine photogaph, but is even more ridiculous since the image was clearly created by someone wishing to- literally and figuratively- paint such people in this light. Please read the "H&WC Section Rules" at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962 before posting again. / Mike Miller, Moderator]
I'm not gonna address your remarks on whether it's true about "Asiatic soldiers" being more cruel or not, it's my personal perception of the matter. Regarding the attachment; I read the rules and I'll add a link to the image instead.
The image just illustrates how it could've looked like in Germany in 1944-1945, but sensitive readers are warned anyway:
[The link- to what can only be described as KIDDY PORN[- is removed as well. Your "personal perception" does not apply here. This is a research forum, not a "personal perception" / opinion forum. / Mike Miller, Moderator]
The image just illustrates how it could've looked like in Germany in 1944-1945, but sensitive readers are warned anyway:
[The link- to what can only be described as KIDDY PORN[- is removed as well. Your "personal perception" does not apply here. This is a research forum, not a "personal perception" / opinion forum. / Mike Miller, Moderator]
Last edited by Flieger on 28 Dec 2007, 21:09, edited 1 time in total.
Actually the source of Beevor claim about 2 million rapes:Flieger wrote:Sorry for bumping, but...
The source is military historian Anthony Beevor, who has studied the Soviet archives. It is estimated that 2 million German women and girls were raped, but this info. has not been established as a historical fact as it's taboo to talk about it and was even more so in the aftermath of WWII and during the Cold War. The winners write history and so they did. But the inconvenient fact about Red Army atrocities involving murder, massrape, plundering, etc., in Eastern Europe and in Germany was apparently never considered "important" or "necessary" to include in WWII-history, as it could damage relations to Soviet/Russia (why else would one not include it?) I, at least, never learned about the Red Army atrocities when I went to school. Did you?Kunikov wrote:There is no real source that '2 million rapes' took place, and the German 'evacuation,' at least from the reading I did on it, is in my opinion exaggerated.
page 410 of his book 'The Fall of Berlin 1945' (pdf):
In Source Notes he wrote:Berliners remember that, because all the windows had been blown in, you could hear the screams every night. Estimates from the two main Berlin hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 13o,ooo rape victims. One doctor deduced that out of approximately ioo,ooo women raped in Berlin, some io,ooo died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to be much higher among the 1.4 million who had suffered in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least 2 million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape.
In Select Bibliography:p. 410 rape estimates, Dr Gerhard Reichling, and Charite and Kaiserin Auguste Victoria, quoted Sander and Johr, pp. 54, 59
Interesting that the same authors and in the same book estimate 10 million Soviet women raped by German soldiers. See here - http://www.helpline-sh.de/Kriegsvergewaltigung.htmlSander, Helke, and Johr, Barbara (eds), Befreier and Befreite. Krieg, Vergewaltigungen, Kinder, Munich, 1992
UPD: correct link - http://web.archive.org/web/200507310922 ... alt10.html
Last edited by Dmitry on 29 Dec 2007, 09:08, edited 1 time in total.
Well, are there any eyewitness accounts of Soviet women being raped? I don't think nor have I ever heard of any. I have never even heard of German soldiers raping at all, certainly not those they were forbidden to touch because of Racial policies and because they were "subhumans" (Untermenschen).Dmitry wrote:Interesting that the same authors and in the same book estimate 10 million Soviet women raped by German soldiers. See here - http://www.helpline-sh.de/Kriegsvergewaltigung.html
And 2 out of 4 of the authors he used apparently claim 10 million Soviet women were raped. It is weird (and interesting), anyway.
But what are you trying to say? Did not 2 million German women get raped according to you, or what? Or do you believe 10 million Soviet women were raped by German soldiers?
Have I missed something here? Please point out where in the rules it says it's forbidden to post links to images, which some might find too graphic. Because I must've missed something. In the 3rd paragraph of the miscellaneous section rules, I read (after you removed the attachment):Flieger wrote:[The link is removed as well. Your "personal perception" does not apply here. This is a research forum, not a "personal perception" / opinion forum. / Mike Miller, Moderator]
The policy here is, if the photos are "graphic," the contributor should post a link to the photographs, rather than the photographs themselves, so that the other viewers have a choice as to whether or not to take a look.