Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

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Sergey
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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#61

Post by Sergey » 09 Jun 2009, 17:15

Frankfurter wrote:
Sergey wrote: So what is the right name? Cunegundes or Kunigunde?
David Thompson wrote:My copy of Mr. Ryan's book has neither footnotes nor sources given chapter by chapter. Because we don't have the statistical base or bases of these rape estimates available to us, we can't tell whether the quoted figures are accurate.
It looks as 'Mother Superior Cunegundes' is a fictional character. Some authors use this method.
That "some authors use this method" does not mean Beevor did. And as for Kunigunde or Cunigunde, thats the same name, like Marshal Shukov is the same as Shoukov or Schukow.
Frankfurter, Mr.Beevor used a very simple method. He quoted many sources without any attempt to verify the allegations that they contain.
Frankfurter wrote:There is no doubt the Red Army turned into the Rape Army after entering Germany, no matter if this or that "event" in the media was fictional to dramatize reality.
You don't doubt. However other has right to doubt. Personally I'm not aware about even one documented case of mass rape (where significant number of women were raped at one day) comitted by the Soviet soldiers. I mean well described case with place, date, number of victims.

I mean something like this

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 9-14.shtml
In the city of Lvov, thirty-two women working in a garment factory were first violated and then murdered by German Storm Troopers. Drunken German soldiers dragged the girls and young women of Lvov into Kesciuszko Park, where they savagely raped them. An old priest, V. I. Pomaznew, who, cross in hand, tried to prevent these outrages, was beaten up by the fascists. They tore off his cassock, singed his beard, and bayonetted him to death.
There are many other strories in this source.

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#62

Post by Frankfurter » 09 Jun 2009, 18:18

First: there is no doubt no people had more right to be utterly angry about Hitler´s Germany than the inhabitants of the USSR (and Poland, for that matter).

But does that justify the large-scale crimes of the Red Army, does that justify commonplace lynching and rape? No, no, no. Considerable parts of the Red Army were nothing but an uncivilized soldateska like the medieval lansquenet hordes pillaging Rome.
Some Russian commanders threatened to execute such "soldiers", but the huge numbers of rapists among the troops obviously prevented enforcement.

Chaos in Germany´s East was such that by far the most crimes of the Red Army were not reported properly. Add to it that all these areas were under the strict Soviet oppression for decades afterwards and you get - lack of properly recorded events.
I am not a revisionist at all (I´m confident my posts on this forum show that), but I´m also not a dump believer in every history book written by victors, especially if that victor was, like the USSR, a cruel dictatorship themself.
Also I surely would not believe every word Beevor writes. What I notice also is a Russian lack of will to acknowlege Russian warcrimes.


Even if only half or a third of that horrible number of 2 million women raped in Germany is true, its the largest rape in a rather short time in the history of mankind. Tens of thousands of women comitted suicide becaue they could not get over it, some sources say more than 100.000. Doctors are reported saying they were consulted by many women about how to commit suicide best.

British POWs interned in Eastern Germany say that the Red Army raped every female between 12 ans 60 in all the villages around. Boys and men trying to protect them were shot.

Rape by Russians was so commonpace, children were playing "Rape".

http://www.przyszowice.com/index.php?module=IPage&id=16
(in Polish, Russians soldiers raped and massacred up to 60 Poles in Przyszowice, assuming they were Germans)

In Budapest 10.000s of women were raped by the Inglorious Soviet Army. In some Hungarian areas Officers allowed their soldateska to pillage and rape for three days, true to medieval customs of the 30 year war. (Krisztián Ungváry: Sowjetische Verbrechen nach der Besetzung Ungarns, in: Franz W. Seidler, Alfred M. de Zayas: Kriegsverbrechen in Europa und im Nahen Osten im 20. Jahrhundert, Verlag Mittler, Hamburg, Berlin, Bonn 2002, ISBN 3813207021, S. 126–128.)

There is a list of 63 sources regarding this topic on English wikipedia alone.

Fact is, regardless if "only" 500.000 or 2 million German women were raped by the Soviets, the Red Army of 1945 has no right to be called "Glorious", not even by Russians.


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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#63

Post by Sergey » 09 Jun 2009, 20:26

Frankfurter wrote:First: there is no doubt no people had more right to be utterly angry about Hitler´s Germany than the inhabitants of the USSR (and Poland, for that matter).

But does that justify the large-scale crimes of the Red Army, does that justify commonplace lynching and rape? No, no, no. Considerable parts of the Red Army were nothing but an uncivilized soldateska like the medieval lansquenet hordes pillaging Rome.
Some Russian commanders threatened to execute such "soldiers", but the huge numbers of rapists among the troops obviously prevented enforcement.
Frankfurter, you say about it as the fact that mass rapes happened has been proved. Let's first of all look into facts and only then let's make the judgement. Can you imagine a court that voice a verdict and only then look into a case?
Frankfurter wrote:Chaos in Germany´s East was such that by far the most crimes of the Red Army were not reported properly. Add to it that all these areas were under the strict Soviet oppression for decades afterwards and you get - lack of properly recorded events.
But there were (and are) millions of refugees from East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania in the Western part of Germany. If mass rapes happened then they no doubt would recall them. And in 1989 the last obstacle was removed. Many witnesses were alive. If in this or that village or small town all (or almost all) women were raped then their relatives would say about it in 1989.

My Mother-in-Law lived in a big Ukrainian village during WW2. She was too young and was not sent to Germany as slave work-force. However she and her brother remember pretty well the years of occupation even now. No one woman was raped int the village by German or Italian soldiers. Yes, her family was forced to live in a barn, the house was occupid by German officers, her older brother (partisan) was killed in Gestapo in Dnepropetrovs. But there were no rapes in the village. Though several lassies were raped by men in German uniforms. They were Kalmyks. From formal point of view German command is responsible.
Frankfurter wrote:I am not a revisionist at all (I´m confident my posts on this forum show that), but I´m also not a dump believer in every history book written by victors, especially if that victor was, like the USSR, a cruel dictatorship themself.
Also I surely would not believe every word Beevor writes. What I notice also is a Russian lack of will to acknowlege Russian warcrimes.
First of all I would like to see what exactly should I acknowlege. You speak about Russian warcrimes. I accept that there were many individual cases. But as for mass rapes then this accusation is so serious that it requires factual information, proof, testimonies of witnesses.
Frankfurter wrote:Even if only half or a third of that horrible number of 2 million women raped in Germany is true...
...and if it is not true?

Let's read it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stor ... 0516.shtml
"Last night, I was in bed with my little girl when I heard a loud knocking on the door. When I opened the door an English soldier with a bayonet pushed his way into the house."

At this point the RAF Regiment officer obviously realized that this was a matter which ought to be resolved elsewhere. He took us all (with the exception of the sentry) into his office. There, the woman continued her story. The woman related how she was forced back on her bed with the bayonet held at her throat, whilst her little girl was a terrified spectator. A later visit to the scene of the crime, for a crime it was, revealed a really small cottage containing one large room serving its purpose as a living room, kitchen and a bedroom. However at this initial interview, the officer produced a notebook and recorded the details, such as the woman's name and address, her marital status and so on. Actually her husband was missing in Russia.

"Were you raped?" The officer posed this question to the woman.
...
"Hat der englische Soldat Sie vergewaltigt?" was the question, I was able to put at last to the
poor woman.

"Ja!", she replied, and then once again with greater emphasis, "JA!"
Can you make a conclusion that the British comitted mass rapes in Germany? No? So why do you so sure about the Russians?

As for 2 millions then actual number could be 100 times lesser. Take into account that about 10 millions of Soviet troops were in Germany. There were criminals in the Red army who were allowed to join the army directly from the jail. Alas, too many were killed by German Army. Most of my relatives from Siberian village were killed including my Grandfather.
Frankfurter wrote:..., its the largest rape in a rather short time in the history of mankind. Tens of thousands of women comitted suicide becaue they could not get over it, some sources say more than 100.000. Doctors are reported saying they were consulted by many women about how to commit suicide best.
They are no more that estimates, sometimes politically motivated. Some in germany and in the West had (and has) reason to portray the russians as subhumans, as barbarians.

I have a proposition. Let's try to find even one well established concrete case of mass rape and then we would move further.
Frankfurter wrote:British POWs interned in Eastern Germany say that the Red Army raped every female between 12 ans 60 in all the villages around. Boys and men trying to protect them were shot.
Where excatly it has happened? When?
Frankfurter wrote:Rape by Russians was so commonpace, children were playing "Rape".

http://www.przyszowice.com/index.php?module=IPage&id=16
(in Polish, Russians soldiers raped and massacred up to 60 Poles in Przyszowice, assuming they were Germans)
By the way my Grandmother is ethnically Polish and was born in Catholic family with strict rules. Polish language is so close to Russian that it is impossible to think about Poles as about Germans. I will comment this source later.
Frankfurter wrote:In Budapest 10.000s of women were raped by the Inglorious Soviet Army. In some Hungarian areas Officers allowed their soldateska to pillage and rape for three days, true to medieval customs of the 30 year war. (Krisztián Ungváry: Sowjetische Verbrechen nach der Besetzung Ungarns, in: Franz W. Seidler, Alfred M. de Zayas: Kriegsverbrechen in Europa und im Nahen Osten im 20. Jahrhundert, Verlag Mittler, Hamburg, Berlin, Bonn 2002, ISBN 3813207021, S. 126–128.)
It is again no more than an estimate, supposition. It is not a well described case.
Frankfurter wrote:There is a list of 63 sources regarding this topic on English wikipedia alone.

Fact is, regardless if "only" 500.000 or 2 million German women were raped by the Soviets, the Red Army of 1945 has no right to be called "Glorious", not even by Russians.
63 sources? Number of 'sources' don't make then well proven. There are mountains of lies.

Well, look into these 'sources' and point to even one that you regard trustworthly and we will discuss it.

PS. No problem with Poland or Hungary as a place of investigation. But let's concentrate on Germany.
Last edited by Sergey on 09 Jun 2009, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#64

Post by Sergey » 09 Jun 2009, 20:45

Frankfurter wrote:http://www.przyszowice.com/index.php?module=IPage&id=16

(in Polish, Russians soldiers raped and massacred up to 60 Poles in Przyszowice, assuming they were Germans)
So you think that 60 were raped? So even men were raped?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przyszowice_massacre
Men, women and children aged between 10 days and 78 years were killed, although most of the victims were adult males.
So anyway it is not a well proven case of mass rape.
the Soviet forces looted the village and raped an unknown number of women.
This allegation about the massacre in Przyszowice emerged for the first time in 2005. Why not before? It is a bit strange. There are many political forces in Poland that have own agenda to spoil Polish-russian relations namely now.

If some civilians were killed then it could happen in cross-fire because the village was a spot of fierce battles and was recaptured by the Germans.

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#65

Post by Frankfurter » 09 Jun 2009, 21:55

Dear Sergey, its a lot you´re writing, too much to respond to now.
And in most cases I wont have the necessary proof at hand before reading books again I read before about this topic. If I read books, and in case of history, I only read impartial sources, I do not write down all details to be able to quote them here with title and page. Sorry. But I´ve read enough to be sure that the Red Army contained a larger percentage of men ready for crime, namely rape, than any other in modern times besides the SS.
One source is Ueberschär with his numerous books about the WWII and Nazism. This author/publisher is very objective and investigative and even more so against Germans than anyone else.
Stalin, his NKWD or likeminded murder squads oppressed, killed and imprsioned their own people by the hundreds of thousands and millions, so the largescale crimes of the Red Army in Eastern Germany should be merely Cold War propaganda? Very hard to believe.

You asked after quoting a rare event: "Can you make a conclusion that the British comitted mass rapes in Germany? No?"

Lets hear first hand sources:
My rather big family, parents, uncles, aunts, everyone lived in the zone occupied by the British Army after the war. My grandparents, strict catholics and no Nazis all of them, were to old to participate in the war, most of my uncles too young. They all say the British behaved very well. They say they have not heard anything about a single complaint, not to speak of something grave as rape.

My grandfather, an old man around 70 by then) on the other hand had a Russian working for him in the final stages of WWII, because his son, my father, was called to arms in the last months, aged 17. This Russian did not want to leave after the armistice. He had to be forced by other Russians coming by, looting the neighbourhood, afraid of what the Soviets might do with him. He prevented his "comrades" to loot my grandparents home. He said he wanted to come back, at least be in contact because of the good treatment my grandparents showed to him. Nothing was heard of him again.

"But as for mass rapes then this accusation is so serious that it requires factual information, proof, testimonies of witnesses."
I fully agree.
And there are many accounts as much as I, and most will agree on this forum, know.

"Where excatly it has happened? When? "
Lauenburg, Pommerania.
Dont have the source I read it at home. It was from the public library here in Frankfurt a library which chooses its books very carefully (no chance for revisionist´s crap). It was maybe in one of the excellent Ueberschär books of which I read many.

"They are no more that estimates, sometimes politically motivated. Some in germany and in the West had (and has) reason to portray the russians as subhumans, as barbarians."

Well, surely some idiots here have such intentions, but they are a small minority. At least we had and have democracies with freedom of speech since WWI. Over the longer term, large scale falsifications have no chance. Something the USSR, and to some extent, still today´s Russia can not boast with. In regard of the WWII Red Army falsifications and glorifications, victor´s history written by one of the strictest dictatorships, was the rule, at least until 1989.

Btw, aren´t there famous Russians which admitted largescale barbarsim of their own troops? I remember Kopelev or Solschnizyn doing so.

Anyway, about this topic, I admit I´m not an expert. I focussed more on German war crimes than about Russian so far.

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#66

Post by Sergey » 10 Jun 2009, 09:14

Dear Frankfurter, with pleasure I have read you replay.

I agree with you on one important point. Memoirs of our relatives are the most reliable source. We with my wife several times have been to Germany, recently have been to Vienna. As I speak English and she speaks German very good (sometimes she was regarded as a German) then the attitude to us was the best possible I believe. Alas my Mother-in-Law and her parents had a linguistical barrier with the Germans during the occupation. Once an old German officer tried to explain why he is there. He moved his fists one close to another and said Hitler-Stalin, added something in German apparently trying to demonstrate that it is the war not between the peoples but between the rulers. My Mother-in-Law recalled that many girls from her village were forced to work in Germany. Their fate was different. One her neighbour lived with an old women in Germany and she treated her as a daughter. But another one was ordered to sleep with swines. As for Stalin oppressions, then I opened a thread previously based on history of my family.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=150252

There was a village (now it doesn't exist) in Tomsk region in Siberia with about 80 Polish families (including the family of my Grandmother). My father was born in the village and many his relatives (though distant ones) were arrested and executed.
Frankfurter wrote:Stalin, his NKWD or likeminded murder squads oppressed, killed and imprsioned their own people by the hundreds of thousands and millions, so the largescale crimes of the Red Army in Eastern Germany should be merely Cold War propaganda? Very hard to believe.
Stalin of course was a brutal dictator but he was not an idiot. Mass oppresiions in the Soviet union were intended to strengthen his power, to remove political rivals, to prevent even a thought about riots. As for Germany then Stalin tried (not sincerely but for political reasons) to win hearts and minds to establish communist regime and spread Soviet influence Westward. My father recalls how he and his family (and others) suffered from constant hunger during the war and later. Almost all that the villagers managed to grow were taken away. By the way have you heard about a wave of deaths from hunger in Berlin, in East Germany? Soviet government supplied the Berliners with food sometimes better than own citizens. But who now would recall it?
Frankfurter wrote:Lauenburg, Pommerania.

Dont have the source I read it at home. It was from the public library here in Frankfurt a library which chooses its books very carefully (no chance for revisionist´s crap). It was maybe in one of the excellent Ueberschär books of which I read many.
I have too few information to comment. Do you mean this Lauenburg?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauenburg/Elbe

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#67

Post by Artur Szulc » 10 Jun 2009, 11:01

Sergey,

Exactly, what makes this http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 9-14.shtml
such a great source on German atrocities in the city of Lwow?

in Polish, Russians soldiers raped and massacred up to 60 Poles in Przyszowice, assuming they were Germans
Your response to the qoute above was: :So you think that 60 were raped? So even men were raped?

You are playing with words here. You surely understand what it means. The russians killed the man and raped the women, thus "Russian soldiers raped and massacred up to 60 poles....". No need to be splitting hairs...

There are plenty of eyewitness reports that verify the massrapes of German women during the Soviet offensive in East Prussia and Germany. Even in the "liberated" Poland rapes were common.

There is no rule that says that eyewitness accounts can not be trusted or are full of lies.

Just read Max Hastings Harmagedon

The swedish journalist Niclas Sennerteg has written a book Stalins hämnd (Stalins revenge - The Red army in Germnay 1944-1945) on this subject as well. The book is based on years of research and interviews.

--------

Off-topic, and for this I apologize:
There are many political forces in Poland that have own agenda to spoil Polish-russian relations namely now.
And no political force in Russia have that agenda? This has nothing to do with this thread, so why even make such a comment?

(And by the way, Russian and Polish is not "so close" to each other. I do not understand russian more then a few words, but I also understand some words in serbian, that does not mean the Polish and Serbian is "close". I can not read one word in russian since the alphabet is different, but I can pretty much read czech newspapers and understand the grand picture.)

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#68

Post by Sergey » 10 Jun 2009, 15:07

chili wrote:Sergey,

Exactly, what makes this http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 9-14.shtml
such a great source on German atrocities in the city of Lwow?
Chili, they are official documents of Nuremberg trials. German historians no doubt are aware about these allegations and had more than 60 years to investigate the incidents, to make comments, to correct the description, to correct number of victims and so on.
chili wrote:
in Polish, Russians soldiers raped and massacred up to 60 Poles in Przyszowice, assuming they were Germans
Your response to the qoute above was: :So you think that 60 were raped? So even men were raped?

You are playing with words here. You surely understand what it means. The russians killed the man and raped the women, thus "Russian soldiers raped and massacred up to 60 poles....". No need to be splitting hairs...
Your remark is fair. Initially I suspected that not 60 women were raped. My remark was merely a figure of speech. From formal point of view the phrase in its direct mening seggests that all Poles were femails as 60 Poles were raped and murdered.

Anyway, the case doesn't look as a case of mass rape. Was anybody ever raped in the village?
chili wrote:There are plenty of eyewitness reports that verify the massrapes of German women during the Soviet offensive in East Prussia and Germany. Even in the "liberated" Poland rapes were common.

There is no rule that says that eyewitness accounts can not be trusted or are full of lies.
Well, let's fix a name of even one village ot town in Germany (or Poland) and let's find relevant information. If, as you claim, there are many examples then let's find even one well proven, well established case.
chili wrote:Just read Max Hastings Harmagedon

The swedish journalist Niclas Sennerteg has written a book Stalins hämnd (Stalins revenge - The Red army in Germnay 1944-1945) on this subject as well. The book is based on years of research and interviews.
If there are so many books with a lot of information then moreover even one well proven, well established case of mass rape should exist. But where it is? I need a name.
chili wrote:Off-topic, and for this I apologize:
There are many political forces in Poland that have own agenda to spoil Polish-russian relations namely now.
And no political force in Russia have that agenda? This has nothing to do with this thread, so why even make such a comment?

(And by the way, Russian and Polish is not "so close" to each other. I do not understand russian more then a few words, but I also understand some words in serbian, that does not mean the Polish and Serbian is "close". I can not read one word in russian since the alphabet is different, but I can pretty much read czech newspapers and understand the grand picture.)
Of course Polish is a separate Slavic language. I don't speak Polish but heard sayings, verselets that my Grandmother told me many years ago... Hats, hats, small sizes, big sizes... I remember how it sounds... I remember how 'Poland is not dead' sounds... Then I was a student of Moscow university (in the times of Solidarnosc) I read Polish newspapers (Soldier of freedom, Life of Warsaw). It was sufficient to remember meaning of 100-200 words specific to Polish (as 'a soldier') and learn how to read combinations of consonants.

In the article we read
...żołnierze Armii Czerwonej. Zamordowali wówczas 54 osoby ( w tym 2 latem, gdy wracali spod Berlina)...
Red Army soldiers killed 54 persons (including 2 that summer then they were returning from Berlin).

So actual alleged number of victims (of the alleged massacre) is 52 (not 60).

I believe that there are no political forces in Russia that try to spoil Polish-russian relations. By contrast Washington tries to built new barriers, tries to continue geopolitical pressure upon Russia. and of course there are political forces in Poland that work according to American instructions.

It is not an off-topic remark. We can freely discuss how many were died during building of Egyptian Pyramides, How many were massacred after orders issued by Caesar and so on. But as for war crimes happened during WW2 then clear political agenda exists. And it should be taken into account.

I repeat, it is not off-topic remarks because political motives (sometimes subtle, sometimes clear) exist.

For this reason I propose to examine even one concrete case, that looks as the alleged mass rape in Lvov.
Last edited by Sergey on 10 Jun 2009, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#69

Post by Artur Szulc » 10 Jun 2009, 15:28

Sergey,

I have read many of your well-written and interesting comments here on AHF. I also read your texts on holocaustcontroversies. You are procovative but you always stick to facts. And I respect that.

But this

I believe that there are no political forces in Russia that try to spoil Polish-russian relations. By contrast Washington tries to built new barriers, tries to continue geopolitical pressure upon Russia. and of course there are political forces in Poland that work according to American instructions.

Makes me wonder just how objective you really are and if you on this matter have lost your ,normally, good judgment.

I will come back on the massrapes.

Best regards,

Chili

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#70

Post by Ogorek » 10 Jun 2009, 16:41

When you enlarge the photo here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przyszowice_massacre
The vast majority of the names on the marker are male.
I believe that there are no political forces in Russia that try to spoil Polish-russian relations. By contrast Washington tries to built new barriers, tries to continue geopolitical pressure upon Russia. and of course there are political forces in Poland that work according to American instructions.
I am also rather surprised (actually, shocked is a better word) by the above statement

Ogorek

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#71

Post by Sergey » 10 Jun 2009, 17:54

Ogorek wrote:When you enlarge the photo here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przyszowice_massacre
The vast majority of the names on the marker are male.
So unlikely it is a case of mass rape then. I'm not aware how it actually happened. Has the victimes been killed in a crossfire? Why this case has emerged only recently?

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#72

Post by Artur Szulc » 10 Jun 2009, 19:39

Why this case has emerged only recently?
There can be a lot of reasons why this case has emerged recently. If you by 2005 mean recently.

The Polish IPN has only conducted its research since the year 2000 and did primarily focus on German war crimes and the Communist repressions from 1944 to 1989.

2005 they started to investigae crimes against Poles in Polish Schlesien 1945. There is no need to bee suspicion about why they have not investigated this earlier.

I doubt there are any political reasons for this.

Historical research on a specific matter some times start many decades after the event. Historians also conduct research based on personal convictions, education, political views, governmental guidelines, emotional attachments, social background and so on. The situation is the same everywhere, in Poland, Russia, Sweden, Great Britain...
Historians function in a context but this does not mean that we should cast suspicion upon them.
--------------------------

You wanted to examine the massrapes. Here are four examples where massrapes occured, all mentioned in Sennertegs book:

Rössel
Elbing
Danzig
Königsberg

Dates? Well, try from january 1945 uptil april, perhaps?

If you know russian, then I must ask you if you have read Grossman or Vladimir Gelfand. What do they tell us about the massrapes?

Best regards,

Chili

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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#73

Post by Sergey » 10 Jun 2009, 21:40

chili wrote:
Why this case has emerged only recently?
There can be a lot of reasons why this case has emerged recently. If you by 2005 mean recently.

The Polish IPN has only conducted its research since the year 2000 and did primarily focus on German war crimes and the Communist repressions from 1944 to 1989.

2005 they started to investigae crimes against Poles in Polish Schlesien 1945. There is no need to bee suspicion about why they have not investigated this earlier.

I doubt there are any political reasons for this.
Polish IPN looks as a political body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_ ... emembrance
Institute of National Remembrance — Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation (Polish: Instytut Pamięci Narodowej — Komisja Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu; IPN) is a Polish government-affiliated research institute with lustration prerogatives[1] and prosecution powers[2] founded by specific legislation.
What are examples of IPN activity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koniuchy_massacre
Koniuchy massacre
...
On January 29, 1944, the village was attacked by Soviet partisan units under the command of the Central Partisan Command in Moscow. The raid was carried out by 100–120 partisans from various units including 50 Jewish partisans from the Kaunas Ghetto and the Vilnius Ghetto under the command[citation needed] of Jacob Prenner and Shmuel Kaplinsky. Men, women and children were massacred indiscriminately and most of the households destroyed. According to the findings of the Institute of National Remembrance (investigation still in progress), at least 38 people were killed and about a dozen injured, although earlier reports stated higher numbers of deaths. Notified about the assault, the 253rd battalion of the Lithuanian Security Police soon arrived at Koniuchy but did not find any Soviet partisans.
...
As part of its investigation, Lithuanian prosecutors have sought out elderly Jewish veterans of the partisan movement, including Ginaite, for questioning. Also under investigation is Yitzhak Arad, a former IDF brigadier general, Jewish resistance movement veteran, and former chairman of Yad Vashem, who served as a member of a commission appointed by Lithuania's president in 2005 to examine past war crimes. Arad became the subject of criticism by Lithuanian right wing groups after his public recommendation for an examination of Lithuania's role in the Holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_ ... emembrance
IPN itself has been criticized for reliance on possibly falsified documents from the Polish communist secret police (Służba Bezpieczeństwa).[20] In addition to pro-opposition media in Poland, this issue has also been highlighted by some media outlets outside Poland, such as The Guardian, Chicago Tribune and Newsday. The Guardian drew a parallel to McCarthyism in the United States[21] and journalist Matthew McAllester of Newsday described the events as a political witch hunt.
chili wrote:Historical research on a specific matter some times start many decades after the event. Historians also conduct research based on personal convictions, education, political views, governmental guidelines, emotional attachments, social background and so on. The situation is the same everywhere, in Poland, Russia, Sweden, Great Britain...
Historians function in a context but this does not mean that we should cast suspicion upon them.
In the case with IPN I stongly doubt that it is a purely historical research organisation.
chili wrote:You wanted to examine the massrapes. Here are four examples where massrapes occured, all mentioned in Sennertegs book:

Rössel
Elbing
Danzig
Königsberg

Dates? Well, try from january 1945 uptil april, perhaps?

If you know russian, then I must ask you if you have read Grossman or Vladimir Gelfand. What do they tell us about the massrapes?
So you haven't any example at hand and propose me to find it. I tried, without result.

Warmest regards,

Sergey

Artur Szulc
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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#74

Post by Artur Szulc » 10 Jun 2009, 22:44

Sergey,

So you took some of the activities of the IPN and came to a judgmental conclusion. Have you ever visited the IPN archives in Warsaw? Or their bookshoop? So you think you can make a statement about what IPN does based on Wikipedia?

Well, we can use Wikipedia if you want:

Among the most widely reported case investigated by the IPN thus far is the Jedwabne Pogrom, an infamous pogrom of Polish Jews "committed directly by Poles, but inspired by the Germans" in 1941. A selection of other cases include:

Bloody Sunday (1939), an alleged massacre of ethnic Germans by Poles after the German invasion of Poland
German camps in occupied Poland during World War II, the system of extermination, concentration, labor and POW camps operated by the German Nazis in occupied Poland
Holocaust in Poland, persecution of the Jews by the German Nazi occupation government in Poland
Katzmann Report, a detailed German report on extermination of Polish Jews
Kielce pogrom, a post-war pogrom of Polish Jews[12] by Poles
Koniuchy massacre, a massacre carried out by Jewish and Soviet partisan
Kraków pogrom.[13]
Massacre of Lwów professors, the mass execution of approximately 45 Polish professors of the University of Lwów
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia, an ethnic cleansing conducted by Ukrainians in Volhynia during World War II
Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles, war crimes and crimes against humanity committed against ethnic Poles by Nazi Germany during World War II
NKVD prisoner massacres, a series of mass executions committed by Soviet NKVD against Polish prisoners
Occupation of Poland (1939-1945) and treatment of Polish citizens by the occupants in that period
Operation Wisła, the 1947 deportation of southeastern Poland's Ukrainian, Boyko and Lemko populations by the post-war Soviet installed communist government of Poland in cooperation with Czechoslovakia and Soviet Union to the Western territories attached to Poland from Germany after WWII, the so called "Recovered Territories" [14][15]
Pawłokoma massacre, a massacre in 1945 of Ukrainian civilians by Polish partisans
Ponary massacre, the mass-murder of about 100,000 people performed by Germans and Lithuanians on Poles and Jews
Poznań 1956 protests, the first of several massive protests of the Polish people against the communist government of the People's Republic of Poland
Przyszowice massacre committed by Red Army on Polish villagers of Poland and other Red Army atrocities in Poland
Salomon Morel, a case of a Polish Jew running post-war camp were political prisoners were persecuted
Special Courts, the underground courts organized by the Polish Government in Exile
Wąsosz pogrom, a pogrom of Jews in Nazi-occupied Poland
Żegota, Polish underground organization with the purpose of aiding persecuted Jews in German occupied Poland.

So, the IPN investigate all kings of crimes, committed by Germans, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians.

Let ut leave the polish IPN in this thread, since it is off topic. Let us agree that we disagree regarding the institutes reasearch.

---------------
So you haven't any example at hand and propose me to find it. I tried, without result.
Well, you asked for places and I gave you some.

And searching the Internet is not research.

And have you read Grossmand and Gelfand? Do they write anything on massrapes?

Best regards,

Chili

Sergey
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Re: Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Germany

#75

Post by Sergey » 11 Jun 2009, 06:49

Chili, I believe that even an attempt to present "Jews form ghettos" as war criminals is cynical.
chili wrote:Let ut leave the polish IPN in this thread, since it is off topic. Let us agree that we disagree regarding the institutes reasearch.
Agreed.
chili wrote:
So you haven't any example at hand and propose me to find it. I tried, without result.
Well, you asked for places and I gave you some.
I asked about well proven, well established cases with place, date and description of mass rape.[/quote]

So it is not sufficient information to make a judgment.
chili wrote:And have you read Grossmand and Gelfand? Do they write anything on massrapes?
No I don't read their books. However, if they mentioned any case of mass rape with place, date, number of victims then there should be other sources. I don't exclude that they mentioned that rapes happened. Nobody denies that individual cases happened.

As for mr.Gelfand then he is not so well known author as mr.Grossman, who had a conflict with Stalin's regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Grossman
The Politburo ideology chief Mikhail Suslov told Grossman that his book could not be published for at least three hundred years:

I have not read your novel but I have carefully read the reviews of your manuscript, responses to it, which contain many excerpts from your novel. Look how many quotes from them I have written down....Why should we add your book to the atomic bombs that our enemies are preparing to launch against us? . . . Why should we publish your book and begin a public discussion as to whether anyone needs the Soviet Union or not?[3]

Life and Fate, as well as his last major novel, Forever Flowing (Все течет, 1961), were considered a threat to the totalitarian regime, and the dissident writer was effectively transformed into a nonperson. Forever Flowing, in particular, is unique in its quiet, unforced, and yet horrifying condemnation of the Soviet totalitarian state, a work in which Grossman, liberated from worries about censors, spoke honestly about Soviet history.

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