Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

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Linkagain
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Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#1

Post by Linkagain » 05 Jun 2021, 21:13

what did Hitler and his inner circle think of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprsing? {Any mention in Hitler table talk?}
Goebbels claimed to talked with 3 members of the Waffen SS from the fighting and made a entry about it in his diary
Jofl is alleged to complained that Strrops report was over 75 pages....when a "real battle" was in a few pages....

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wm
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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#2

Post by wm » 06 Jun 2021, 11:19

Hitler certainly doesn't mention the uprising. Goebbels only in a few, and only somewhat correct, sentences.
Despite all today's attention, it wasn't really an important event.
Even in Warsaw, at that time, it wasn't called uprising but disturbances and went partially unnoticed after several first days - especially that simultaneously the Katyń Massacre was become known and stole lots of the attention.

The Stroop Report wasn't really a report but, using modern terminology, a blog distributed among "followers", and thanks G-d for that, we would know very little about the uprising without it.


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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#3

Post by Linkagain » 06 Jun 2021, 19:34

Observation of warsaw Ghetto Uprsising
First of all the Jewish Forces were divided.. between the Left wing ZOB [which had the advantage of numbers]and the right Wing ZZW [which had the advantege of Arms] even together the fighters just number about a battalion(1,000) {with about enough arms for a formation of this size....{Sadly this division went back 20 years to the Labor vs Revionist quarrel on how to defend Jewish Communites from attack {Labor favored restraint; the revionists favored retaliation]

some accounts claim the germans had 300 casualites....Stroops reports lists
110 {16 killed + 1 dead] and 93 wounded...a check of german casualites show in the first 11 days Germans had total of 9 dead and 59 wounded [34 wounded on the first 2 days] and next 15 days German loses were 8 dead and 24 wounded
These figues tell one thing that the greater part of the ZOB/ZZW ammo had been used up in the first few days of fighting...and the germans suffered less casualites....as the supply diminished...over a month...

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wm
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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#4

Post by wm » 07 Jun 2021, 02:04

The uprising lasted several days, then the ZZW fled and the ZOB went into hiding.
It had no meaningful goals (except to die with gun in hand) so it didn't matter that they were divided.

A battalion needs more than a ton of supplies per day of fighting, it lasted so long because the Germans weren't actually especially better, it was a motley group, many of them barely knew how to hold a gun.

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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#5

Post by gebhk » 08 Jun 2021, 08:42

It had no meaningful goals (except to die with gun in hand) so it didn't matter that they were divided.
You are forgetting that they did have another and perhaps more meaningful goal which was to take as many Germans with them as they could. To that end their internal division(s) did matter.

The fact that the uprising happened at all was an embarrassment to the Nazi administration (a blot on their efficiency) and to Nazi ideology (Jews aren't supposed to be capable of this sort of thing) so it is not surprising that the Nazi grandees pretended it wasn't happening (I imagine Stroop's self-aggrandising album was as welcome as a dose of clap!).

And yes, from a military/strategic point of view it was of vanishingly small relevance but I would submit that from a point of view of celebrating the human spirit, it was an event of some significance and worth remembering.

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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#6

Post by wm » 09 Jun 2021, 22:59

I don't think it embarrassed the Germans, Stroop wasn't embarrassed - but rather overjoyed at the opportunity.
Stalingrad was an embarrassment, bombing of German cities, the battle of Tunisia but that not so much.

The Nazi administration had lost effective control over the ghetto a few months earlier as evidenced by the tens of thousands of unregistered, "wildcat" Jews living there and they were ok with it - as long as the ghetto produced war matériel (and private profits and bribes) in large quantities.

It was the paranoid Himmler who believed the Jews in the ghetto were so dangerous that the ghetto had to be relocated to rural areas (against strenuous opposition of everybody else). So in the end the uprising confirmed his suspicions.

Actually, according to Nazi ideology, the Jews were extremely capable people, as capable as the Germanic folks. After all, they were able to control Russia, Britain, and the US. They were capable but evil and destructive - an evil mirror image of the Germans.

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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#7

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Jun 2021, 12:59

Hi wm,

Nazis seem to have held contradictory views about Jews. On the one hand they regarded them as inferior. On the other they saw them as a threat. Either way, they wanted rid of them.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#8

Post by wm » 10 Jun 2021, 19:52

I'm not quite sure it was contradictory. Hitler would explain that the Jews were highly capable but lacked higher moral emotions, especially were incapable of cooperation (to their own detriment) and lacked the spirit of sacrifice for common good (the Germans were the best race in that).
The two things and their predatory instincts made them morally inferior and dangerous. Inferior didn't imply weak.

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Re: Query on warsaw ghetto fighting???

#9

Post by gebhk » 11 Jun 2021, 08:51

Inferior didn't imply weak
On balance, I agree with you. Regardless of the blarney, at the fount of pretty much every aggressive movement demanding racial purity lies the fear that the hated 'racial enemy' is more competitive than their own 'race'. Otherwise there wouldn't be a problem, n'est pas?

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