Killer Submarine

[zmija]

According to my knowledge feldgrau is an amateur site, not a serious source.

Serious source or not there are other sites (yes, Wikipedia included) that say nothing about WG being a military training ship. Just Lazarettschiff and Wohnschiff ... and Refugee Transport.

Hitler's admirals‎ -page 219
George Henry Bennett, Roy Bennett -
More than thirty-five hundred men in training for U-boat service were on the
Wilhelm Gustloff when she was sunk.

The World's Merchant Fleets, 1939: The Particulars And Wartime Fates of 6,000 Ships (Hardcover)
~ Roger W. Jordan
page 58 also mentions that Gustloff served as accomodation for U-boat trainees.

There are other sources for this, including memories of the soliders.

Gustloff was armed, full of military personel, and its primary mission was to transport U-Boat crews to wage war against Allied shipping. The passangers who were also Nazis, and colonists sent to Poland by Hitler(not natives of Gdynia who were ethnicly cleansed in 1939 to make room for Germans) were taken only due to chaos of the war, not because the mission of Gustloff demanded so.
By destroying this ship the Soviet commander possibly saved thousands of lifes of Allied shipping personel.

Yes, WG was armed with AA guns, and was not full of military personnel (918 - 3500+ U-Boat men out of estimated 10582 people on board, numbers depend on the source. 3500+ comes from yours.), the damage these u-boat men could have caused to the Allies is material for What if section and the passengers being nazis or what WG's misson was is irrelevant in this case (also the ethnic cleansing of Gdynia is stuff for another thread). I see no evidence of WG ever being a military training ship.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Gustloff was not a Hospital ship. It was never marked as such. Before being used as transport for evacuations ( of both military and civilian personnel) it was utilized as accommodation ship for the U-Boat trainees.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... m+gustloff
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... m+Gustloff

[TISO]

Serious source or not there are other sites (yes, Wikipedia included) that say nothing about WG being a military training ship. Just Lazarettschiff and Wohnschiff ... and Refugee Transport.

from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Gustloff_(ship)

Beginning 20 November 1940, the medical equipment was removed from the ship and it was repainted from the hospital ship colors of white with a green stripe to standard naval grey.[4] As a consequence of the British blockade of the German coastline, she was used as an accommodations ship (barracks) for approximately 1,000 U-boat trainees of the 2nd Submarine Training Division (2. Unterseeboot-Lehrdivision) in the Baltic port of Gotenhafen (Gdynia) – near Danzig (Gdańsk).[4] The Wilhelm Gustloff sat dockside for over four years, until she was put back in service to transport civilians and military personnel as part of Operation Hannibal.

At the time of the sinking it was not marked as a hospital ship. Basily it ceased to be a hospital ship and was turned into a floating military barracks as far back as late 1940. In 1945 she served a military troop transport and was as such a legitimate target.

Same goes for SS General von Steuben (also sunk by S-13, captain Marinesko Alexander Ivanovich) and Goya (sunk by L-3, Captain Konovalov Vladimir Konstantinovich) both were troop ships. No matter how unfortunate was their sinking they were legitimate military targets.

[zmija]

Gustloff was not a Hospital ship. It was never marked as such.

Hi, Oleg! http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/history_hospitalship.htm seems to disagree with you.

At the time of the sinking it was not marked as a hospital ship. Basily it ceased to be a hospital ship and was turned into a floating military barracks as far back as late 1940. In 1945 she served a military troop transport and was as such a legitimate target.

Pozdravljen rojak! I know that and I have no problem with it. What I would like is some evidence that the Wilhelm Gustloff ever served as a military training ship as Okyzm claimed. That is all I'm asking.

[TISO]

"Training ship" confusion is probably due to serving in 2. Unterseeboot-Lehrdivision.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

It does not disagree with me - it says it stopped being such in 1940. Has it been marked as hospital ship it would be a crime on part of Germans to transport unharmed military personnel on board.

[zmija]

It was never marked as such.

Or did I misquote you?

[Oleg Grigoryev]

fine I am correcting myself it stopped being hospital ship as of 1940

[redcoat]

Yes, WG was armed with AA guns, and was not full of military personnel (918 - 3500+ U-Boat men out of estimated 10582 people on board, numbers depend on the source. 3500+ comes from yours.), the damage these u-boat men could have caused to the Allies is material for What if section and the passengers being nazis or what WG's misson was is irrelevant in this case (also the ethnic cleansing of Gdynia is stuff for another thread). I see no evidence of WG ever being a military training ship.

It doesn't matter if the Gustloff was an accomodation ship for the U-boat arm or a military training ship, both classifications make it a legitimate target.

In fact, due to the fact it was armed and carrying a large number of military personnel as well as refugees it doesn't matter what classification you use, she was a legitimate target.

[Panzermahn]

Marinesko's 'achievements' made him the best soldier of WW2

Simo Häyhä, the Finnish sniper only managed to kill 505 Soviet troops with a bolt-action rifle and a minimum 505 bullets (ironically it was a Russian Mosin-Nagant) but Marinesko, using only 3 torpedos, managed to kill more than 9,000 humans, the majority are women and children aka Fascist Invaders, Fascists Beasts as well as Hitlerite criminals, which is the best kill rate in WW2.

No wonder Soviet Union awarded Marinesko posthumously Hero of Soviet Union for achieving the best kill rate in WW2 and there is a statue of him, the best soldier of WW2 in Kaliningrad :roll:

[Penn44]

Marinesko's 'achievements' made him the best soldier of WW2

... but Marinesko, using only 3 torpedos, managed to kill more than 9,000 humans, the majority are women and children aka Fascist Invaders, Fascists Beasts as well as Hitlerite criminals, which is the best kill rate in WW2.

No wonder Soviet Union awarded Marinesko posthumously Hero of Soviet Union for achieving the best kill rate in WW2 and there is a statue of him, the best soldier of WW2 in Kaliningrad :roll:

The blame belongs to the captain of the Gustloff who allowed civilians onto his ship which was carrying soldiers. The Soviet sub commander engaged a legitimate military target.

"Fascist Invaders, Fascists Beasts as well as Hitlerite criminals" - We can do without the agitprop histrionics.

Penn44

.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Marinesko's 'achievements' made him the best soldier of WW2

Simo Häyhä, the Finnish sniper only managed to kill 505 Soviet troops with a bolt-action rifle and a minimum 505 bullets (ironically it was a Russian Mosin-Nagant) but Marinesko, using only 3 torpedos, managed to kill more than 9,000 humans, the majority are women and children aka Fascist Invaders, Fascists Beasts as well as Hitlerite criminals, which is the best kill rate in WW2.

No wonder Soviet Union awarded Marinesko posthumously Hero of Soviet Union for achieving the best kill rate in WW2 and there is a statue of him, the best soldier of WW2 in Kaliningrad :roll:

Mr. Panzermahn what are your thoughts on sinking of "Armenia" http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ia+sinking

[zmija]

... she was a legitimate target.

I never said she wasn't. All I wanted was for Okyzm to present evidence/source for his claim that Wilhelm Gustloff served as military training ship.

[redcoat]

... she was a legitimate target.

I never said she wasn't. All I wanted was for Okyzm to present evidence/source for his claim that Wilhelm Gustloff served as military training ship.

To be fair, while she may have not been used for military training as such, she did serve in the military training establishment of the U-boat arm of the Germany navy as an accomodation ship, and it is possible that some teaching of the sailors took place on her (though I have no direct info on the fact)

[Panzermahn]

Wilhelm Gustloff is used indeed as a military training ship by the Germans for Mr. Marinesko to shoot using just only 3 torpedos and earned himself everlasting fame and glory in the annals of Soviet military history of The Great Patriotic War as the best Soviet soldier in WW2 with the highest enemy kill rate. (Un?)Fortunately, Mr. Marinesko's training happen only once and there weren't anymore ocean-liner-converted-into-hospital-ship-and-then-converted-back-to-military-training-ship for the Soviet submariners to sink :roll: