Poland and Ukraine resolve massacre row

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Post by David Thompson » 12 Jul 2003 21:50

Szczerbiec -- The last four of the photographs you posted do not comply with forum policy on atrocity photographs at:

Policy on Atrocity Photographs
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15945

Consequently, I have deleted them and relaced them with links. Interested readers may find them at these urls:

http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys5b.JPG
http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys6b.JPG
http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys2b.JPG
And the most shocking
http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys1b.JPG

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 12 Jul 2003 22:13

You give me sources from...... the NKVD?????????
The men glorifying father Stalin? Those behind Shlomo Morel's vengeance? Those who were behind Katyñ???


Why don't you quote the Gestapo while you are here????? They were good with their reports about Aryan superiority???

The hate from communists towards the AK are well known, father Stalin did not appreciate those who refused to cooperate with the regime.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 12 Jul 2003 22:31

Szczerbiec wrote:You give me sources from...... the NKVD?????????
The men glorifying father Stalin? Those behind Shlomo Morel's vengeance? Those who were behind Katyñ???


Why don't you quote the Gestapo while you are here????? They were good with their reports about Aryan superiority???

The hate from communists towards the AK are well known, father Stalin did not appreciate those who refused to cooperate with the regime.
they did not like OUN either. Anyway glorifying Stalin was not NKVD job –these an internal report, marked “top secret” which obviously gives no propaganda value whatsoever. As for Gestapo – many German war crimes were confirmed as such based on captured German documents – you misfired … again.

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 12 Jul 2003 22:47

oleg wrote:they did not like OUN either.
They did not like patriotism, conservatism, national-socialism, nationalism etc. And....?
oleg wrote: Anyway glorifying Stalin was not NKVD job –these an internal report, marked “top secret” which obviously gives no propaganda value whatsoever.
You should read Aleksander Solghenitsyn "The GULag Archipelago", especially chapter XI.
Orders were given to secret services to find illegal organisations that were against communism. What the NKVD did? They picked up a dozen workers or professors (everybody knows how they loved the inteligentsja..... :roll: ), tortured them until they invented a story. The NKVD bureaucrats had now invented paperwork for father Stalin torturing innocents under orthodox church.

This is why NKVD sources are bullshit, my friend.

oleg wrote:As for Gestapo – many German war crimes were confirmed as such based on captured German documents – you misfired … again.
Be kind and remember how the war with Poland has began. It was aaaaaalll the fault of the Poles. Arghhh these Poles, hein?

The difference between German and Soviet documents is that Germans did not invent bullshit (if it was not for propaganda reasons).

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 12 Jul 2003 22:54

Szczerbiec wrote:
oleg wrote:they did not like OUN either.
They did not like patriotism, conservatism, national-socialism, nationalism etc. And....?
oleg wrote: Anyway glorifying Stalin was not NKVD job –these an internal report, marked “top secret” which obviously gives no propaganda value whatsoever.
You should read Aleksander Solghenitsyn "The GULag Archipelago", especially chapter XI.
Orders were given to secret services to find illegal organisations that were against communism. What the NKVD did? They picked up a dozen workers or professors (everybody knows how they loved the inteligentsja..... :roll: ), tortured them until they invented a story. The NKVD bureaucrats had now invented paperwork for father Stalin torturing innocents under orthodox church.

This is why NKVD sources are bullshit, my friend.

oleg wrote:As for Gestapo – many German war crimes were confirmed as such based on captured German documents – you misfired … again.
Be kind and remember how the war with Poland has began. It was aaaaaalll the fault of the Poles. Arghhh these Poles, hein?

The difference between German and Soviet documents is that Germans did not invent bullshit (if it was not for propaganda reasons).
well since the main supporting document for the Katyn is also an internal NKVD report, and since according to you, it is BS by defenition, it is sfae to assume that Katyn never happened -right? Also a while ago I posted here NKVD reports that verified executions of priosners in Lwow and other palces at the outbreak of the war -since NKVD reports BS by defenition - no such execution by NKVD obviously occured -they just made it up to appear "badder" than they actually were. Grow up. Solzhenitisn is a good read whne it comes to hsi personal experince, but as historicla source his value is minimal at best.

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Penn44
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Shame

Post by Penn44 » 12 Jul 2003 23:04

That some of you continue to argue who shot who first or who harmed who more is really beyond me. Comparisons of one atrocity with another is a filthy business that degrades everyone who participates. They are all bad, whether it be the harm of one person or of millions. And such comparisons tend to promote a continuation of the very animosity that led to the violence in the beginning.

I wish I had not seen -
http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys1b.JPG

If you are going to expend energy, expend it on discussions of how to stop future atrocities.

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 00:25

I am not comparing atrocities, since they was no atrocities committed by Poles towards Ukrainians in my beliefs. I will ask AK veterans to provide backup concerning NKVD documents.

As for Penn44........ this picture is a picture of children tied up with a metal, sharp cords. It was in a forest, and Ukrainians called it "the flower road to free Ukraine".... All trees beside the road in the forest had these children tied, which formed bouquets of flowers. Dramatic indeed...........

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Szczerbiec
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Re: Shame

Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 00:30

Penn44 wrote:If you are going to expend energy, expend it on discussions of how to stop future atrocities.
Penn44, you are right. But what I am trying to do is to show the truth: in my opinion there were no polish crimes committed against the Ukrainian civils. I have received a communist source concerning the activities of AK-ers. I will ask AK veterans to provide information to see if this is true - what I doubt.

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 00:56

I e-mailed the AK veterans of Montreal
http://www.citinet.net/ak/

On this page this catched my attention:

Code: Select all

Truth is in conformity to fact or reality. Fact is something that actually exists or has actually occurred or has happened. 
Fact and truth agree in denoting an assertion that corresponds to reality. 
That is why we have chosen this way of discussing the problem and opinions concerning Poland. We are not afraid of the truth but we don't accept expression of a bad opinion about our country based on untruth. 
As a first step toward establishing the truth, we want to let know some important events of Poland's history.
Now it is only a matter of time.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 13 Jul 2003 01:09

Szczerbiec wrote:I e-mailed the AK veterans of Montreal
http://www.citinet.net/ak/

On this page this catched my attention:

Code: Select all

Truth is in conformity to fact or reality. Fact is something that actually exists or has actually occurred or has happened. 
Fact and truth agree in denoting an assertion that corresponds to reality. 
That is why we have chosen this way of discussing the problem and opinions concerning Poland. We are not afraid of the truth but we don't accept expression of a bad opinion about our country based on untruth. 
As a first step toward establishing the truth, we want to let know some important events of Poland's history.
Now it is only a matter of time.
For the sake of argument let’s say that you do manage to contact a person who actually did kill Ukrainian civis - why would he want to admit to that?

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 01:11

That did not happen, genius. No Ukrainian civils were killed.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 13 Jul 2003 01:18

Szczerbiec wrote:That did not happen, genius. No Ukrainian civils were killed.
sure, sure - becouse it is NKVD report - bs by defenition, so is Katyn, Lwow, and whtever these peopel found:


8MG of PDF doucmenst- obviously pure BS.

In regards to "genius", no offense, true believer, but with you as measuring stick most of us will look as such.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 01:27

Genius, just a simple question.......

Why in the ukrainian parliament resolution there is mention about Ukrainians suffering from Poles, and in the polish parliament resolution there is no mention of any Ukrainians? Somebody must be lying!

And tell me, the polish soldiers wanted to go to Ukraine to remember this tragedy, and they were refused access! Is this the unity that both presidents were talking about? Or the ukrainian authorities were afraid that the veterans would protest against such history falsifying?

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Post by David Thompson » 13 Jul 2003 01:37

Szczerbiec -- You said: "That did not happen, genius. No Ukrainian civils were killed."

(1) Please do not personalize your argument by ironically addressing another poster as "genius." Oleg is being straightforward with you. Please return the courtesy.

(2) Do you really believe that after the scene depicted in the photo at:

http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys1b.JPG

happened, that no one committed any atrocity as a reprisal?
Last edited by David Thompson on 13 Jul 2003 01:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 01:40

1) OK
2) Yes, against fascist OUN-UPA soldiers not innocent civilians.

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