Poland and Ukraine resolve massacre row

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David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 13 Jul 2003 01:41

Fair enough.

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 01:45

What is fair enough? Do you qualify legitamate, defensive war as being the same as genocide? Can you compare the resistance of Poland in 1939 to german KZ-s?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 13 Jul 2003 01:46

Szczerbiec wrote:Genius, just a simple question.......

Why in the ukrainian parliament resolution there is mention about Ukrainians suffering from Poles, and in the polish parliament resolution there is no mention of any Ukrainians? Somebody must be lying!

And tell me, the polish soldiers wanted to go to Ukraine to remember this tragedy, and they were refused access! Is this the unity that both presidents were talking about? Or the ukrainian authorities were afraid that the veterans would protest against such history falsifying?
Members of the Ukrainian parliament, however, complained that the text of the declaration did not adequately acknowledge the Ukrainian deaths.
The declaration, which was drafted by a Polish-Ukrainian committee, described the event as a tragedy of the Polish people in its very first sentence.
That upset many Ukrainian parliamentarians, who noted that their country's victims did not get a mention until the end of a paragraph.
having reading trouble - true beliver? -that is form very first post here.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 13 Jul 2003 01:48

Szczerbiec wrote:1) OK
2) Yes, against fascist OUN-UPA soldiers not innocent civilians.
sure, sure .. interethnic conflicts are widly known for chivelrious attitudes of oposing sides, or at least one side -if they are Poles.

So is Katyn one big hoax to make NKVD look tougher?
Last edited by Oleg Grigoryev on 13 Jul 2003 02:32, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 13 Jul 2003 02:15

Szczerbiec -- You asked: "What is fair enough? Do you qualify legitamate, defensive war as being the same as genocide? Can you compare the resistance of Poland in 1939 to german KZ-s?"

I think you misunderstood me. "Fair enough" is an English idiom, which is not criticism and means:

OK.

All right.

That's understandable.

No one could expect more.

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Szczerbiec
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Post by Szczerbiec » 13 Jul 2003 02:43

Sorry, my english does suck :D

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lukeo
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Post by lukeo » 13 Jul 2003 18:00

Well. The Ukrainians from UPA are fully responsible for the carnage, that took place on Wolyn/Vohlinya. And, as I know, the Polish Home Army attacked those villages, that were collaborating with the UPA in they bloody campaign against polish civilians.

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Alexander
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Post by Alexander » 10 Jul 2004 21:01

Well, I see a polish citizen who tries to convince us that:
a) Evil ukrainians tried to kill all the poles in Western Ukraine because they were evil
b) poor poles never gave a reason for attacks
c) poles killed ukrainians only for revenge.

Well, look at the history of Poland and Ukraine and see who ALWAYS was the conquerer and always tried to grab neighbour's land and goodies.

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Post by CoffeeCake » 10 Jul 2004 21:38

Does debating about who got killed or the intentions really matter? The only people who know the truth are already dead, so we can only speculate. Our job is trying to prevent future atrocities by any side, no matter what their intentions are, good or evil.

Revenge goes no where, it only makes more blood spill. That is the past now, the Ukrainians and Poles are now trying to make amends. The Poles and Ukrainians have a special history, if not brotherhood. I think that it can be argued that during WW2, these respective nations lost the most people (proportion to population, about 20% each) and assets. I think its now the time to call for more unity, if not for Slavic unity, then for human unity.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 11 Jul 2004 23:29

This thread is back 1 year later and you gotta love it. Well, There is no doubt that the Ukrainian Insurgernt Army of Stefan Bandera is responsible for this. The Ukrainian genocide was usually accompanied by a barbaric scorched earth policy.

Regards

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Askold
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Post by Askold » 12 Jul 2004 05:20

Benoit:

This is interesting news about scorched earth policy. I would like to know which areas were subjected to such policy.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 13 Jul 2004 02:24

Askold,

The scorched earth policy was not limited to the territory of Volhynia, but extended to the whole of Eastern Galicia and even part of South-Eastern Poland.

Regards

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Askold
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Post by Askold » 13 Jul 2004 15:46

Would it be possible for you to show me a map which shows which specific land masses that were covered by such policy?

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Post by szopen » 02 Aug 2004 09:06

As I understand it, the course of events was:

1) pre-War policy of pacification of villages, closing Ukrainian schools etc by Polish government, answered by terror from Ukrainian Nationalist movement

2) Massacres of Poles in Vohlynia

3) In Lublin or something like that area revenge on Ukrainians

4) after the war, the Vistula operation.

The AK DID made attacks on Ukrainian civilians, but it was UPS which started is as a way to ethincally cleanse the area. Also note, that Germans DID use some units of Police, which were sometimes mistakenly taken by Ukrainians as AK units. (The same is with situations in other areas: Poles were frequently taking German Police for Lithuanian partisans, for example).

It's possible that i have made few errors above. I was reading arguments and document of r all sides for too long and started to stop understand it something like half year ago :-(. It was nonsensical bloodshed, and i hope that never again brothers from Ukraine and my home country Poland would fight against themselves.

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Post by Topspeed » 02 Aug 2004 09:37

David Thompson you links did not work.

Here is one which does by someone else before here:

http://www.genocide-pl.prv.pl/ (English version avail.)

There is a pic of little children tied in a tree with a barbed wire ( as a warning it is appalling picture ).

What was the cause of these violent acts between Ukrainas and Poles ?

JT
Last edited by Topspeed on 02 Aug 2004 09:53, edited 1 time in total.

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