[British] war criminals [?]

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ignacioosacar1
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[British] war criminals [?]

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 20 Jul 2022 00:28

Dear Forum,

Was any British military judged as war criminal during or after the war?

Cheers!

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Hans1906
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Re: war criminals

Post by Hans1906 » 20 Jul 2022 15:30

Hi ignacioosacar1,

Local memories show that after 1945 the English, Canadians and Poles behaved very well in my northern German homeland.

Of course, the Allies cleaned up, looking for formerly staunch NSDAP supporters, that was normal.

I have a whole series of about 30 photos of a young ex-naval artilleryman who served in Swastopol.
After the German surrender, the young man came to work as an assistant cook in the Allied officers' mess, in a former college for the NSDAP.

People were more than happy to be able to work in this canteen, something always fell off.
There was corned beef, baked beanes, there was tea, sometimes some coffee,

Whatever was left over fed entire German families.

They are tragic memories, I often talked to the husband's widow, the old lady gave me a tin can with more than 250 photos of her husband.
It was important to her that all of this didn't disappear into nowhere, in a dustbin.

Simple stories of simple people, insignificant, and at the same time infinitely valuable.


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

LineDoggie
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Re: war criminals

Post by LineDoggie » 20 Jul 2022 17:38

ignacioosacar1 wrote:
20 Jul 2022 00:28
Dear Forum,

Was any British military judged as war criminal during or after the war?

Cheers
Sir Anthony Cecil Capel Miers, VC, KBE, CB, DSO & Bar was not only NOT prosecuted for machinegunning survivors twice(he actually logged it ) but awarded the VC and retired an admiral

4 Officers were court-martialed for offences at the Bad Nenndorf interrogation center

2 completely acquitted 2 convicted on lesser charges
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Hans1906
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Re: war criminals

Post by Hans1906 » 20 Jul 2022 18:15

Arthur Harris was a war criminal, there is no doubt about it.

Arthur Harris https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris

Erecting a memorial to a mass murderer defies description.

And of course the orders were mass murder, killing of civilians was the norm, who wants to deny that?

The only way to bring the people to their knees was through terror, that wasn't a strategy, that was mass murder.

Otherwise, if Japan had been genuked, the little apes, these subhumans, these humans were worth nothing, nuke em!

They were happy to finally put these "half-monkeys" in their place, what did people matter, worthless bastards, get rid of them!


Imagine such a "Bomb" on NYC, on Washington, what would our world look today...


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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wm
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Re: war criminals

Post by wm » 20 Jul 2022 21:30

Although Artur Harris wasn't a war criminal, he never gave an order to kill civilians, and killing civilians wasn't a norm.

Technically a British military committing a crime during the war would be prosecuted according to British laws and regulations. Invoking the (much less precise) Hague or Geneva conventions would be improper and spurious (because much less precise).

And, if they were unwilling to prosecute the perpetrator according to British law, they would be even less willing to prosecute him according to international law.

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Re: war criminals

Post by LineDoggie » 23 Jul 2022 00:40

Hans1906 wrote:
20 Jul 2022 18:15
Arthur Harris was a war criminal, there is no doubt about it.

Erecting a memorial to a mass murderer defies description.

And of course the orders were mass murder, killing of civilians was the norm, who wants to deny that?

The only way to bring the people to their knees was through terror, that wasn't a strategy, that was mass murder.
A Strategy my good man invented by Your Luftwaffe over Guernica, and perfected over Wieluń, Działoszyn, Radomsko, Sulejów, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Conventry, London, Plymouth, Belfast, Dublin, Manchester, Birmingham, Leningrad, Liverpool, Portsmouth, Stalingrad, Southampton, Exeter, Bristol, Bath, Cardiff, Nottingham, Norwich, Ipswich, Sheffield, Hull, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Newcastle, Glasgow..........

And who can forget Bf-109's and 110's, Do-17's, Ju-88's strafing columns of civilian refugees to create terror in Poland, Belgium, France, USSR.......
Hans1906 wrote:
20 Jul 2022 18:15
Otherwise, if Japan had been genuked, the little apes, these subhumans, these humans were worth nothing, nuke em!

They were happy to finally put these "half-monkeys" in their place, what did people matter, worthless bastards, get rid of them!
Yes ''Half monkeys'', almost sounds how a certain umlat using nation called Jews ( Judenrat anyone?), Slavs, Romany, Russians, any of the RhineWhiners subhuman groups marked for liquidation
Hans1906 wrote:
20 Jul 2022 18:15
Imagine such a "Bomb" on NYC, on Washington, what would our world look today...


Hans
Had your opa's had their way, such devices would have been used on NYC or Washington, Moscow, London....

Too bad eh?
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Hans1906
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Re: war criminals

Post by Hans1906 » 23 Jul 2022 11:47

LineDoggie,

I was born in 1956, it wasn't "my" war crimes.
And the Japanese were considered "subhuman" by the Americans, am I completely wrong about all this?

My simple common sense tells me why the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan.
To say to the Russians, we Americans have the bomb, up to here and no further!

My view is simple, they wanted to send a signal against the communists and they killed tens of thousands of civilians in one fell swoop.

A pathetic disgrace, the biggest war crime in human history, yes.


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

LineDoggie
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Re: war criminals

Post by LineDoggie » 23 Jul 2022 23:13

Hans1906 wrote:
23 Jul 2022 11:47
LineDoggie,

I was born in 1956, it wasn't "my" war crimes.
And the Japanese were considered "subhuman" by the Americans, am I completely wrong about all this?

My simple common sense tells me why the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan.
To say to the Russians, we Americans have the bomb, up to here and no further!
More killed in one night in Tokyo (9/10th march, 1945 Operation Meetinghouse) using Non Atomic weapons (M69 incendiaries)than at Nagasaki, and the soviets knew about the bomb thanks to Communist spies in the US government like Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Klaus Fuchs, David Greenglass, Harry Gold, Morton Sobell.....
Hans1906 wrote:
23 Jul 2022 11:47
My view is simple, they wanted to send a signal against the communists and they killed tens of thousands of civilians in one fell swoop.
Simple yet not correct


Hans1906 wrote:
23 Jul 2022 11:47
A pathetic disgrace, the biggest war crime in human history, yes.


Hans
The Biggest War crime in History was the Holocaust perpetrated by guess who?

Hiroshima was a Military target-



Headquarters Major general Shunruko Hata's 2nd General Army headquartered in Hiroshima Castle- responsible for the Defence of all Southern Japan

Headquarters 59th Army, Imperial Japanese Army
5th Division IJA
224th Division IJA
In total some 40,000 IJA personnel stationed within the City itself

Eta Jima Naval Academy in Hiroshima harbor (Japanese Annapolis)
Major IJA C2 Node
Major IJA/IJN Supply base

In fact when the bomb detonated, it was directly over 3,800 IJA troops performing morning calisthenics.

Nagasaki-
Anchorage for IJN Heavy units and Mini Subs controlled by Sasebo Naval Base
Home to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries naval shipyards (IJN Musashi built there)
Home to the IJA Tank Arsenal
Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works
Akunoura Engine Works
Mitsubishi Arms Plant
Mitsubishi Electric Shipyards
Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works
Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works
Home to Mitsubishi Aircraft (think A6M2 Zero)
Major IJN naval base
Transportation hub
90% of Population directly involved in work for Imperial Japanese Army & Navy
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Sheldrake
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Re: war criminals

Post by Sheldrake » 25 Jul 2022 22:10

ignacioosacar1 wrote:
20 Jul 2022 00:28
Dear Forum,

Was any British military judged as war criminal during or after the war?

Cheers!
Judged by a war crimes court? William Joyce AKA Lord Haw Haw, born an American obtained a British Passport and was tried and convicted by6 a British court.

Judged by public opinion?

A significant segment of the British public have considered the policy of area bombing as a war crime, hence the long time for Arthur Harris and Bomber Command to be commemorated with a memorial.

Woke youth consider several aspects of British Imperial rule during WW2 as war crimes. Over as million victims of the Bengal Famine 1942-43; The use of forced labour in Africa and Asia, waging a war of aggression - in the Anglo Soviet invasion of Persia.(though few members of the public are aware of this)

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Re: war criminals

Post by sekudlyda » 25 Jul 2022 22:56

The outrageous and inaccurate hyperbole of Hans demands yet another response. Here goes. Sir Authur Harris was not a war criminal but a British officer trying to defeat an utterly barbaric enemy who started the Second World War. I hope to lay flowers at his statue the next time I'm fortunate enough to travel to the U.K. Nazi Germany started the war, as well as the "area bombing" of Eurpopean cities. Thanks to Sir Arthur Harris, the Nazis eventually reaped what they sowed. Obviously, the deaths of thousands of innocent German civilians was tragic but their blood stains the hands of Hitler and his vile Nazi henchmen, not Air Marshall Harris.

Hans' understanding of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is as shallow as is his misguided condemnation of Sir Authur Harris. Japan was repeatedly warned in the summer of 1945 to surrender. The war was lost but Japan fought on, the consequences be damned. America had lost more than 12,000 soldiers, sailors, and Marines in the battle of Okinawa alone. Even after the first atom bomb destroyed Hiroshima, Japan refused to surrender. As I said before, the deaths of thousands of innocent German and Japanese civilians was and remains tragic, but blaming Sir Arthur Harris and the U.S. military is misplaced in the extreme. The Nazi leadership and Japanese military are responsible for starting "total war", in the words of Goebbels. They, and they alone, are responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians killed in air raids.

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wm
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Re: war criminals

Post by wm » 25 Jul 2022 23:05

Although Lord Haw Haw wasn't a war criminal for the simple reason, neither the Hague nor the Geneva Conventions forbade his activities.
The crime must be in them to be a war crime.

The other guy - Anthony Miers, doesn't look like a war criminal either. It was forbidden to harm survivors (i.e., sailors from sunk ships), but according to the eyewitness, those were "soldiers" and "to prevent them from regaining their ship."
If they were soldiers and didn't promptly surrender, you could have blown them to smithereens.

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Re: war criminals

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 26 Jul 2022 01:11

Dear sheldrake and Forum,

I remember a long conversation I had with my school former headmaster, a Captain in the Bombay Grenadiers during the war. He had participated in the Anglo-Soviet ocuppation of Persia (PAI Force if I remember well), and he was not very happy with the British conduct in general. He told me about a particular incident in an officer mess. A junior officer was bragging because he had been decorated for his performance in the rounding up of government officials. Among other deeds, he had shot a pro-german minister (?) still wearing his pyjamas, in his own home garden. My former headmaster, being his senior, had energetically scolded this young officer, althou other occasional bystanding officers were largely indifferent or silently approved the procedure. So how the story ends ? After a few days had passed from the incident, my former headmaster, being a lawyer and so much enthusiastic for proper justice procedures, was relieved from his comfortable General Staff job and given the command of a horrible disciplinary unit as an acting Lieutenant Colonel ! He told me it was very much like in the film "The Hill". The story continues but I will end it here.
Chers all¡

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Re: war criminals

Post by Hans1906 » 26 Jul 2022 10:57

I repeat, there is no point in counting war crimes against each other.
Our great-grandfathers, our grandfathers, and our fathers too were responsible for all of this.

Probably none of all of us here in this forum has anything to do with all this anymore.

I know from my grandmother's memories that her husband Hans never got over the shooting of so-called "partisans" at that time, the man was responsible for it as the highest-ranking officer in the RAD at the time.

Difficult to understand, but it was war and shootings were the order of the day, including by members of the Reich Labor Service.

My grandfather was not a war criminal, a decent German officer, and I know that the man suffered because he never came to terms with it until his last day.

Enough written, I'm off this topic.


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Re: war criminals

Post by Hans1906 » 26 Jul 2022 12:28

Your grandfather is not just a war criminal, he is something far worse.
After 1945, the grandfather was classified as a "follower" by the British military administration in northern Germany.

His last rank was a Major, a desk soldier, a bureaucrat, but fate took the man to other duties.

Do you really think it would have pleased the man to order such a thing, no.
It's easy for us today to condemn something, whoever refused back then was faced with his own firing squad in a few minutes...


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

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Re: war criminals

Post by CogCalgary » 26 Jul 2022 16:30

Plenty of crimes,I think many simply justified them in some manner.Most should likely be forgotten unless it involves deliberately cruel and unusual behavior.

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