Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

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wm
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Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

#1

Post by wm » 31 Aug 2022, 15:59

Records of a secret speech by Hitler ahead of Germany’s invasion of Poland, during which he outlined his genocidal aims for the “physical destruction” of “Polish men, women and children,” are genuine, says a German historian.

Writing for news magazine Der Spiegel, Norman Domeier recounts a speech given by the Nazi leader to military commanders at his mountain residence of Obersalzberg on 22 August 1939 – 10 days before the attack on Poland that began World War Two.
“Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality,” said Hitler, according to a transcription made by General Wilhelm Canaris, who was sceptical about the invasion plans. “Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state.”

“I have issued the command – and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy,” continued the Führer.

“Accordingly, I have placed my death’s-head formation in readiness…with orders to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women and children of Polish derivation and language,” he added. “Only thus shall we gain the living space [Lebensraum] we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”

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Re: Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

#2

Post by wm » 31 Aug 2022, 16:11

For the uninitiated, Lochner's L3:
My decision to attack Poland was arrived at last spring. Originally, I feared that the political constellation would compel me to strike simultaneously at England, Russia, France, and Poland.
Even this risk would have had to be taken.

Ever since the autumn of 1938, and because I realized that Japan would not join us unconditionally and that Mussolini is threatened by that nitwit of king and the treasonable scoundrel of a crown prince, I decided to go with Stalin.

In the last analysis, there are only three great statesmen in the world, Stalin, I, and Mussolini. Mussolini is the weakest, for he has been unable to break the power of either the crown or the church. Stalin and I are the only ones who envisage the future and nothing but the future. Accordingly, I shall in a few weeks stretch out my hand to Stalin at the common German-Russian frontier and undertake the redistribution of the world with him.

Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Elhan led millions of women and children to slaughter — with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It’s a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me.

I have issued the command — and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad— that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space {Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

Colonel-General von Brauchitsch has promised me to finish the war in Poland in a few weeks. Had he reported that I need two years or even only one year to do it, I should not have issued the order to march but should have allied myself temporarily with England instead of with Russia. For we are not in a position to carry on a long war.

One thing is true: a new situation has now been created. I got to know those wretched worms, Daladier and Chamberlain, in Munich- They will be too cowardly to attack. They won’t go beyond a blockade. We, on the other hand, have our autarky (self-sufficiency) and the Russian raw materials.
Poland will be depopulated and then settled by Germans. My pact with Poland was, after all, intended only to gain time. And as for the rest, gentlemen, the same thing will occur as regards Russia that I have tested out in the case of Poland. After Stalin’s death — he is a very sick man — we shall demolish the Soviet Union. The dawn of German domination of the world will then break.

The little states cannot scare me. Since Kemal's death Turkey is being governed by cretins and semi-idiots. Carol of Rumania is a thoroughly corrupt slave of his sexual desires. The King of Belgium and the Nordic kings are soft jumping jacks, dependent upon the good digestion of their gorged and tired peoples.

We shall have to count on Japan’s reneging. I have given Japan a full year’s time. The emperor is a counterpart of the last czar. Weak, cowardly, undecided. May he fall a victim to the revolution! My cooperation with Japan never was popular anyway.

We shall continue to stir up unrest in the Far East and in Arabia. Let our mentality be that of lords of the creation and let us see in these peoples, at best, lacquered semi-apes who crave to be flogged.

The opportunity is favorable as never before. My only apprehension is that Chamberlain or some other such dirty cuss may come at the last moment with proposals and appeasements. I’ll throw such a fellow down the stairs, even if I have to kick him in the belly before all photographers. No, it’s too late for that. The attack upon and the annihilation of Poland begins early on Saturday. I’ll let a couple of companies, dressed in Polish uniforms,
make an assault in Upper Silesia or in the Protectorate. It’s a matter of utter indifference to me whether or not the world believes me. The world believes in success alone.

For you, gentlemen, glory and honor are in the offing, such as have not beckoned for centuries. Be tough! Be without compassion 1 Act more quickly and more brutally than the others.
The citizens of western Europe must shudder in horror. That’s the most humane method of conducting war, for that scares them off. The new method of conducting war corresponds to the new draft of the frontiers — one continuous rampart from Reval, Lublin, and Kosice to the mouth of the Danube. The rest will be awarded to the Russians. Ribbentrop has instructions to make every offer and to accept every demand.

In the west I reserve to myself the fixing of the best strategic frontier. There one can operate with Protectorates, say of Holland, Belgium, French Lorraine.
And now: at the enemy! In Warsaw we shall meet again and celebrate!
---
My informant confided to me that, after hearing this astounding speech, Goering, wild with enthusiasm, climbed on a table,
rendered fervent thanks, and promised to carry out the bloodthirsty orders.
What About Germany by Louis P. Lochner


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Re: Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

#3

Post by michael mills » 07 Sep 2022, 01:56

What evidence is there that this version of Hitler's speech on 22 August 1939 was really based on a transcription made by Canaris, and is not a falsification by Lochner of genuine transcriptions made by other military commanders who were present at the Obersalzberg meeting, some of which were accepted by the International Military Tribunal as evidence whereas Lochner's version was not accepted.

So far as I know, there is no preserved transcription of Hitler's speech by Canaris, ie a transcription that has been proved to be by him. All that exists is Lochner's version. Comparison of Lochner's version with the genuine notes by other attendees at the meeting show that Lochner has taken Hitler's words recorded in those notes and changed them to make them sound more brutal.

For example, the genuine notes have Hitler saying that the goal of the campaign against Poland was not to reach a certain line, but "the destruction of living forces", which most probably means the annihilation of the Polish armed forces. Lochner has taken those words and added to them the sentence, which does not appear in any of the genuine notes, about giving orders to kill Polish men. women and children for the purpose of gaining Lebensraum, a sentence that was probably invented by Lochner as part of his propaganda aimed at a credulous British audience. It should be noted that the sentence contains the phrase "for the present only in the East", the obvious purpose of which is to scare his British audience with the implication that at some time in the future these murderous methods might also be applied to them.

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Re: Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

#4

Post by Boby » 07 Sep 2022, 14:11

The author has published an article this year in Heft 6 of Zeitschrift für Geschichswissenschaft titled "Weltherrschaft und Völkermorden
Die „Lochner-Version“ der Hitler-Rede
vom 22. August 1939 als Schlüsseldokument
nationalsozialistischer Weltanschauung". No open access to it, but judging from Der Spiegel comments, there is nothing new here, only an ideological motivated rehash of previous scholarship.

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Re: Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

#5

Post by wm » 07 Sep 2022, 17:10

Weltherrschaft und Völkermorden by Norman Domeier is available as a free download on academia.edu, so I posted it here too:
Weltherrschaft_und_Volkermorden_Die_Loch.pdf
(286.5 KiB) Downloaded 48 times

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Re: Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

#6

Post by Boby » 07 Sep 2022, 19:28

Thanks for the link.

As I expected, there is nothing new here.

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Re: Lochner's version of Obersalzberg speech (L3) genuine says German historian

#7

Post by michael mills » 08 Sep 2022, 13:18

This guy seems to agree that Lochner's version is based on the longer version found in the OKW files and given the number 798-PS as a document presented at the Trial of the Major War Criminals before the IMT. However, he is claiming that Lochner's version represents what Hitler really said, and the document found in the OKW files is a sanitised version, as opposed to the contrary claim that Lochner;s version is a manipulated and exaggerated version of the OKW document.

There seems to be general agreement that the OKW version is based on stenographic notes made by Canaris during Hitler's speech, allegedly surreptitiously, and that Canaris passed it to his deputy Hans Oster, who made a copy. Domeier seems to accept that the original notes made by Canaris and the copy made by Oster are no longer extant.

Certain elements in the Lochner version are taken form the OKW document, the text of which can be found here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/cul-hydra/nur/n ... r00458.pdf

For example, the OKW document contained these words:
The enemy had another hope, that Russia would become our enemy after the conquest of Poland. The enemy did not count on my great power of resolution. Our enemies are little worms. I saw them in Munich.
Lochner's version has this:
One thing is true: a new situation has now been created. I got to know those wretched worms, Daladier and Chamberlain, in Munich- They will be too cowardly to attack. They won’t go beyond a blockade.
Comparison between these two versions suggests that the OKW document is more likely to be the record of Hitler's speech, with Lochner's version being an exaggerated distortion. For example, the words "They won't go beyond a blockade" is clearly based on the this passage in the OKW document:
.
The West has only two possibilities to fight against us:

l) Blockade: It will not be effective because of our
autarchy and because we have sources of aid in the east.

2) Attack from the west from the Maginot line: I consider
this impossible.
All in all, the OKW document 798-PS seems more like what Hitler would have said to his assembled commander in trying to justify his decision to attack Poland, rather than the wild rant contained in Lochner's version. In the OKW document gives a description of his policy toward Poland that is historically true and confirmed by other sources, namely that he wanted to establish an "acceptable relationship" with Poland, but that this had proved impossible, partially because of Poland's own ambitions for "access to the sea", but also because of Britain's "intervention", which disturbed his propositions to Poland about the Danzig Corridor. His statement that his policy toward Poland was "in contrast to the ideas of the [German] people" is also historically quite true.

In contrast, the Lochner document gives a highly sensationalised version of Hitler's words:
Poland will be depopulated and then settled by Germans. My pact with Poland was, after all, intended only to gain time.
A final example of the lurid embellishments in Lochner's version is the final sentence. The OKW document states:
Goering answers with thanks to the Fuehrer and the assurance that the armed forces will do their duty.
In the Lochner version, this appears in a luridly embellished form as:

"
My informant confided to me that, after hearing this astounding speech, Goering, wild with enthusiasm, climbed on a table,
rendered fervent thanks, and promised to carry out the bloodthirsty orders.
It is noteworthy that nowhere in the OKW document is there any reference to the killing of all Polish men, women and children. That passage in the Lochner version appears to be a distortion of a passage in a different set of notes on Hitler's speech, made by a different attendee, which were presented to the IMT as document 1014-PS. That document can be read here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/cul-hydra/nur/n ... r00459.pdf

This short document, which appears to be a slightly different version of Hitler's speech rather than a different speech altogether, contains this passage
Destruction of Poland in the foreground. The aim is elimination of living forces, not the arrival at a certain line.
The most reasonable interpretation of this passage is that it refers to the annihilation of the Polish armed forces, rather than the killing of the Polish civilian population. That is shown by a later passage in this document, which reads:
Complete destruction of Poland is the military aim.

To be sure, this version of Hitler's speech contains the phrases "have no pity", "brutal attitude", and "greatest severity". But it also contains this passage which is not compatible with an exterminatory intention toward the Polish people:
New German frontier according to healthy principles. Possibly protectorate as a buffer.
If Hitler was considering establishing a new border between Germany and Poland, with the remainder of the latter as a buffer state, then he was obviously not planning the extermination of the Polish people, as claimed by Domeier. German plans to allow the existence of a rump Polish state east of the new German eastern border are known from other sources, including statements by Frank on his appointment as Governor-General of the Occupied Polish Territories.

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