A Serious question about Russian war criminals

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Karelia
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Location: Pohojanmaa, Finland

Re: A Serious question about Russian war criminals

#31

Post by Karelia » 10 Jul 2012, 21:59

thom wrote:Karelia wrote:
The Germans did rape massively in Russia
There is no evidence for rape on a massive scale, see here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1714005
Personally I think the 10.000.000 figure claimed by some as an estimate of the soviet women raped by the Germans to be quite (far too) high, but since I cannot prove it neither true or not true I cannot say anything sure about that subject.

However the existence of military brothels with forced prostitutes is enough to allow the use of the word "massive". Whether the overall number of raped women by Germans is higher or lower than that of the soviets I do not know.

What I do know is that the German atrocities were "achieved" within a clearly longer time period compared to that of the soviets. I haven't seen any eye-witness stories of the Germans raping little children or grannies. Also the Germans did not rape in a large scale e.g. the Finns, who where on a same side. The soviets did not seem to have that kind of limitations...
Last edited by Karelia on 11 Jul 2012, 12:04, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Karelia
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Posts: 382
Joined: 28 May 2012, 15:55
Location: Pohojanmaa, Finland

Re: A Serious question about Russian war criminals

#32

Post by Karelia » 10 Jul 2012, 22:22

David Thompson wrote:... How such propaganda "increases the atmosphere in which the atrocities were done" depends on the discipline of the troops and the quality of their commanders.
After reading some books and eye-witness stories of the subject (in addition of the long list of the Finnish experiences in our wars) I can not value the discipline of the soviet troops nor the (moral) quality of their commanders very highly.
This brings us to the next point -- the alleged frequency of Soviet war crimes in eastern Europe. Anyone who has read anything about the period knows that they occurred, but how frequently? The fact that something happened tells you little or nothing about how often it happened. There is a lengthy discussion of this problem in the "Red Army Rape Row" thread. Since the Reich was collapsing, there are relatively few reliable sources for statistics during the final months of the war, and the ordinary population-base statistics are skewed by the flight of refugees trying to move west.


I cannot tell how much is much. Since the horror stories (by eye-witnesses) are so common and the "professional estimates" are so high I personally will continue to believe they were "frequent".
As for Marshal Stalin's sentiments, it's difficult to know how they should be taken, or how they affected military discipline -- this subject is also discussed in the "Red Army Rape Row" thread. He may have been serious, he may have been making a very heavy "joke," or he may have been threatening the subject populations and everyone around him. Taking Marshal Stalin at his word was dangerous when he was alive, and nearly as dangerous now.
Of course one can never be absolutely sure about anybody's real thoughts. However there's a saying, which goes something like this: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it must be the bloody duck! Stalin's personality, actions and sayings all fit to the general picture - together with those of Beriya's.

Anybody, who has been in the army, knows that many things accepted - sometimes even expected - are not officially ordered or agreed on. Sometimes they are even officially forbidden, like the duels in the imperial Russian army. Still everybody knows what is ok to do - regardless of the official orders.


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