NKVD Prisoner Massacres (1941) and their Consequences

[Ponury]

The attitude towards Jews was constantly changing for the better. In 1941, the Germans did not carry out mass murders or deportations in the ghettos. Then there appeared Council to Aid Jews, etc. In addition, the underground supported Jews with weapons and supplies before the 1943 ghetto uprising.

[wm]

More consequences.
28 August 1942, Warsaw
The appeal of the far-right Front for the Rebirth of Poland

In the Warsaw Ghetto, behind walls cutting them off from the rest of the world, several thousand condemned people await death. For them, there is no hope of rescue, no one to help them. Executioners roam the streets, shooting anyone who dares leave their home. They also shoot at anyone who stands at their window. The streets are strewn with unburied bodies.

What is happening in the ghetto is a repetition of what had been happening over the last half a year in hundreds of bigger and smaller Polish towns. The total number of those killed has already passed one million and it is growing every day. All are perishing – the rich and the poor, the old, women, men, youth and infants. In the name of Jesus and Mary, Catholics are dying just like Orthodox Jews. The crime of being born a Jew is punished by Hitler with the death penalty.

The entire world watches these crimes, the worst in history, and remains silent. The slaughter of millions of defenseless people is met with a universal, portentous silence. The executioners remain silent, not wishing to boast of their deeds. England and America remain silent. Even influential, international Jewry, which is sensitive to anything detrimental to its members, remains silent. Poles also remain silent. Polish politicians, friendly to Jews, restrict themselves to diary notes. Poles antagonistic to Jews declare themselves disinterested in a matter which does not concern them. Dying Jews are surrounded by Pilates washing their hands.

Our feelings towards Jews have not changed. We will continue to consider them as political, economic and idealistic enemies of Poland. Furthermore, we realize that they hate us more than the Germans, that they consider us responsible for their misfortune. Why and on what basis is a mystery of a Jewish soul, however, it is a confirmed fact. Nonetheless, being aware of these feelings, we are not exempted from an obligation to condemn a crime.

We do not wish to be Pilates. We do not have the ability to counteract these German murders actively. We can give no advice. We cannot rescue anyone. However, with our hearts filled with mercy, indignation and terror, we protest.
God demands us to protest – God, who forbids to kill. Our Christian conscience demands that too. Every human being is entitled to love their neighbor. The blood of the defenseless cries for vengeance. Whoever is not with us in this protest is not a Catholic.

[wm]

The attitude towards Jews was constantly changing for the better.

The main threat to the Jews were criminals and their close "ally" lumpenproletariat. Those people didn't care if the Jews were traitors or Bolshevik lackeys; they merely preyed on the defenseless.

[David Thompson]

Two unsourced posts From WWII Germany were atheists were removed, pursuant to forum rules. We're not much interested here in unsourced claims, or member notions.

[WWII Germany were atheists]

Whatever the exact number – 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, or what is likely, despite Gross’s estimate, the highest possible number, 40,000 – there is general agreement that over two-thirds of the victims were Ukrainians and one-fifth (or slightly more) were Poles.

If we consider that the total number of Ukrainians in Western Ukraine (about 5 million) was about three times that of Poles (about 1.5 million), then the relative size of the population loss was as great for Poles as for Ukrainians.

At the same time, the fact that the Massacre was an overwhelmingly Ukrainian tragedy, and thus an overwhelmingly Ukrainian shock and trauma, may go some way toward explaining why most observers appear to agree that Ukrainians, who were a minority in most Galician cities and towns, figured more prominently than Poles in subsequent anti-Jewish violence.

No less important than the number of dead is that they were discovered within the space of little more than one week, in a single sustained, relentless wave.
Every time the Soviets evacuated and/or the Germans entered a city or town, heaps of rotting corpses were found in prisons, ditches, or rivers. And since this was the height of summer, memoirists and eyewitnesses invariably mention the unbearable stench.
The fact that the NKVD spent scarce time and resources massacring and gratuitously torturing prisoners struck many Ukrainians and Poles as proof of their victimization at the hands of communists in general and Jewish communists in particular.
The Great West Ukrainian Prison Massacre of 1941 by Ksenya Kiebuzinski and Alexander Motyl

Two unsourced posts From WWII Germany were atheists were removed, pursuant to forum rules. We're not much interested here in unsourced claims, or member notions.

SOURCE
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/a ... rn-ukraine

Due to a lack of reliable sources, exact numbers are impossible to determine; however, historians estimate that the NKVD killed somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000 people in dozens of prisons over the course of eight days. The ethnic breakdown of casualties in Western Ukraine roughly corresponded to population demographics: 70 percent of the victims were Ukrainian, 20 percent Polish, and the remainder consisted of Jews and other nationalities.

The attitude towards Jews was constantly changing for the better. In 1941, the Germans did not carry out mass murders or deportations in the ghettos. Then there appeared Council to Aid Jews, etc. In addition, the underground supported Jews with weapons and supplies before the 1943 ghetto uprising.

As a point of clarification because this can mean numerous things when you say

attitude towards Jews was constantly changing for the better

do you mean the Nazis, Polish, Ukrainians, Soviets, or someone else

[Ponury]

As a point of clarification because this can mean numerous things when you say

attitude towards Jews was constantly changing for the better

do you mean the Nazis, Polish, Ukrainians, Soviets, or someone else

Definitely Poles. Many Jews defended Poland in 1939. However, many remained in their closed communities, then in ghettos, believing in the miracles announced by the Germans. That they will have their own country, their own oases, they will work endlessly for the benefit of the Third Reich. And then it turned out that they are all to be killed anyway. They started looking for help. Poles formed the underground Council to Aid Jews (Zegota), from the communists to the independence underground they began to supply weapons to Jews. Many Jews served in the Polish Army during the war, they knew what weapons were for and how to fight. And so they fought. Underground Poland punished with death any informing on Jews, handing them over to the Germans, etc. In fact, Poles hid the largest number of Jews among other conquered nations.

[WWII Germany were atheists]

As a point of clarification because this can mean numerous things when you say

attitude towards Jews was constantly changing for the better

do you mean the Nazis, Polish, Ukrainians, Soviets, or someone else

Definitely Poles. Many Jews defended Poland in 1939. However, many remained in their closed communities, then in ghettos, believing in the miracles announced by the Germans. That they will have their own country, their own oases, they will work endlessly for the benefit of the Third Reich. And then it turned out that they are all to be killed anyway. They started looking for help. Poles formed the underground Council to Aid Jews (Zegota), from the communists to the independence underground they began to supply weapons to Jews. Many Jews served in the Polish Army during the war, they knew what weapons were for and how to fight. And so they fought. Underground Poland punished with death any informing on Jews, handing them over to the Germans, etc. In fact, Poles hid the largest number of Jews among other conquered nations.

Not sure my opinion on this statement regarding Poles as a whole (strongly disagree with the other options I listed). from my reading of Jewish sources that are written in non polemical way, I see both phenomena's reported amongst Polish where former anti Semites became saviors and visa versa with former friends becoming murders, looters, and bystanders. Though don't overdue it Poland hid the largest number of Jews among other conquered nations because it had by far the most jews giving them more opportunities, furthermore more jews were brought to Poland giving them even more opportunities.

(Makes me wonder if this is just major changes or due different sub polish groups might have had opposite reactions).
I'm curious if you think this Polish attitude towards Jews was constantly changing for the better cut amongst different demographics (urban/rural/noble/peasants/intelligentsia/military/church and geographic regions due to polish pre war differences, nazi only vs double occupation in those who were under different forms of nazi occupation, and how close to death camps, or major ghettos, major massacre sites etc. in places where ethnic poles were the minority versus majority, or any other types of factors I'm forgetting now) From my reading it seems there are major differences in the changes in polish attitudes to jews based on areas, and I'm wondering if you think we had both effects on the demographic level.