Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

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CogCalgary
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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by CogCalgary » 28 Mar 2023 02:54

wm wrote:
28 Mar 2023 00:09
Although nothing wrong with crematoria either. They were useful in wars when frequently more died from diseases than from real fighting.

Crematoria had actually little to do with the Holocaust. Most Jews never saw any crematorium.
Only two of the six death camps had them, and even there, they were only partially used.
That was at an established camp.There is absolutely nothing to be seen on the crest of Jebel Jeloud.
How far would you transport deceased people?
In North Africa.
If you are talking mass percentages of the deceased I will take your word for it as I know many were buried in mass graves in at least one large camp.
What about out in the boonies?
Some of those camps for Jews out right on the Moroccan border are very inaccessible.
Some vast distances.
IIRC,some parts of Libya were not visited by wheeled vehicles till the twenties.
Trying to find that short reference in the book about burn time at Jebel Jeloud.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by CogCalgary » 28 Mar 2023 03:16

At Giado when the victims agonized over the hmg that was set up,the Italians would have needed to shoot every person.There is an account from two sisters,quite young that survived Giado.
Young people intending to become monks were spared at Debra Libanos in Ethiopia,about 35 were spared.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by michael mills » 30 Mar 2023 04:37

Yet, perhaps surprisingly, they seem to have exercised little control over events.
Why "surprisingly"? Libya was Italian sovereign territory, not German, so German officials stationed there, whether civilian or military, had no power to tell the Italians what they should or should not do.

If this Bernhard person did not realise that the Germans did not have any political or administrative power in Italian sovereign territory, then he is not much of a researcher, despite what Urmel thinks, and indeed is profoundly ignorant.
By giving carte blanche to the Italians, Rommel implicitly condoned, and perhaps even encouraged, their war crimes.
Again this is absolute rubbish, for the same reason. In Libya, Rommel was merely a military commander, and had no authority whatever to either prevent the Italian administration from doing something or give them "carte blanche" to do something. Even as a military commander he was subject to the Italian Comando Supremo in Rome, not to the German High Command, or even to Hitler. For example, when he wanted to invade Egypt after the surrender of Tobruk in the middle of 1942, rather than invading Malta which is what Hitler wanted, it was to Mussolini that he applied for authorisation to do so.

This Bernhard person also says something extremely stupid at the end of his article. He claims that the British and Dutch were more virtuous as colonial administrators than the Italians because, although they could sometimes treat the native populations they ruled over rather harshly, they never persecuted the Jews living in their colonial possessions whereas the Italians did.

That is nonsense because it ignores the essential reason why the British and Dutch did not persecute the Jews living in their colonies, which was that the Jews supported the allies and did not oppose the colonial rulers, unlike the non-Jewish natives who often did oppose them, sometimes rising in rebellion. By contrast, the Jews in Libya did oppose their Italian rulers and did collaborate with the British forces on the two occasions when they briefly occupied Cyrenaica, and that is the reason why the Italian authorities treated them harshly and sent many of them to internment camps.

Furthermore, what Bernhard claims is not entirely correct. At the end of the war, parts of the Jewish settler population in Palestine did rise in revolt against the British administration, and the British did crack down very hard on the insurgents, imprisoning many of them and even executing a few.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by Urmel » 30 Mar 2023 08:25

Ah yes, finally I put Mr. Mills on my ignore list.

A happy day.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by wm » 30 Mar 2023 15:27

Everybody and his dog interned people deemed to be a security risk.
And that included Jewish citizens of enemy countries (e.g., Germany, Italy, Romania) by the British.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by CogCalgary » 30 Mar 2023 19:21

Yes but when forced labor occurs and the food rations are insufficient the body breaks down.Carrying heavy stones back and forth for no reason is punishment designed to end your life.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by wm » 30 Mar 2023 22:28

In this case, it would be useful to know why the stones happened. Were the internees tormented for "fun" by their bored guards, Mussolini was behind it, or was it punishment for misbehavior.

During ww1, 20 percent mortality in interment camps wasn't anything unusual. It happened, among others, in Russian, Polish, Austrian camps.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by CogCalgary » 31 Mar 2023 03:32

michael mills wrote:
30 Mar 2023 04:37
Yet, perhaps surprisingly, they seem to have exercised little control over events.
Why "surprisingly"? Libya was Italian sovereign territory, not German, so German officials stationed there, whether civilian or military, had no power to tell the Italians what they should or should not do.

If this Bernhard person did not realise that the Germans did not have any political or administrative power in Italian sovereign territory, then he is not much of a researcher, despite what Urmel thinks, and indeed is profoundly ignorant.
By giving carte blanche to the Italians, Rommel implicitly condoned, and perhaps even encouraged, their war crimes.
Again this is absolute rubbish, for the same reason. In Libya, Rommel was merely a military commander, and had no authority whatever to either prevent the Italian administration from doing something or give them "carte blanche" to do something. Even as a military commander he was subject to the Italian Comando Supremo in Rome, not to the German High Command, or even to Hitler. For example, when he wanted to invade Egypt after the surrender of Tobruk in the middle of 1942, rather than invading Malta which is what Hitler wanted, it was to Mussolini that he applied for authorisation to do so.

This Bernhard person also says something extremely stupid at the end of his article. He claims that the British and Dutch were more virtuous as colonial administrators than the Italians because, although they could sometimes treat the native populations they ruled over rather harshly, they never persecuted the Jews living in their colonial possessions whereas the Italians did.

That is nonsense because it ignores the essential reason why the British and Dutch did not persecute the Jews living in their colonies, which was that the Jews supported the allies and did not oppose the colonial rulers, unlike the non-Jewish natives who often did oppose them, sometimes rising in rebellion. By contrast, the Jews in Libya did oppose their Italian rulers and did collaborate with the British forces on the two occasions when they briefly occupied Cyrenaica, and that is the reason why the Italian authorities treated them harshly and sent many of them to internment camps.

Furthermore, what Bernhard claims is not entirely correct. At the end of the war, parts of the Jewish settler population in Palestine did rise in revolt against the British administration, and the British did crack down very hard on the insurgents, imprisoning many of them and even executing a few.
Ref 66.Secret report of the German consul general in Tripoli to the German embassy in Rome regarding situation in Cyrennica,February 13,1942.
I guess I will need to view it.
After all was said and done after decades it was the German gov that had to pay out..again over North African Jews.
Ref 1
Secret report of the German consul general in Tripoli to the German embassy in Rome.regarding measures against Arabs.March 18,1942.
That one might show things in a different light.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by RedTelephone » 11 Apr 2023 21:55

One has to remember that unlike some other generals, Rommel had no reported qualms at all about the immediate SS atrocities that went on behind the lines during the 1939 Poland invasion.
Last edited by RedTelephone on 11 Apr 2023 22:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by wm » 12 Apr 2023 01:37

Although he was assigned as commander of the Führerbegleitbatallion and he had no chance to witness anything.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by RedTelephone » 12 Apr 2023 08:55

Its inconceivable that he was not informed by other senior officers even if not on front line duties.
The complicity in crimes/ harsh treatment of Eastern European and Jewish civilian populations by almost all the senior Wehrmacht officers has been well established over the years.
And Rommel was an ardent admirer of Hitler in the 1939-42 period.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by Urmel » 12 Apr 2023 09:16

wm wrote:
30 Mar 2023 22:28
During ww1, 20 percent mortality in interment camps wasn't anything unusual. It happened, among others, in Russian, Polish, Austrian camps.
We are talking WW2 here.

What was the mortality rate in US Japanese-American internment camps, or in the British Isle of Man internment camp for German nationals?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by Urmel » 12 Apr 2023 09:34

RedTelephone wrote:
12 Apr 2023 08:55
Its inconceivable that he was not informed by other senior officers even if not on front line duties.
The complicity in crimes/ harsh treatment of Eastern European and Jewish civilian populations by almost all the senior Wehrmacht officers has been well established over the years.
And Rommel was an ardent admirer of Hitler in the 1939-42 period.
He would almost certainly have been aware of the atrocities committed against colonial troops during the 1940 campaign as well.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by michael mills » 12 Apr 2023 12:17

What does all the huffing and puffing about what Rommel may or may not have known about events in Europe in 1939 and 1940 in Europe have to do with the subject of this thread, which is alleged Italian atrocities against the native populations of Italian colonial possessions in Africa, in particular in Libya?

If Red Telephone and urmel want to indulge in a bit of woke Rommel-bashing, they should do so in an appropriate thread, not here. Rommel's role in North Africa was limited to the command of the Axis military forces operating in that theatre, and as such he had no authority over the civilian population which rested with the Italian colonial authorities. As military commander, Rommel was subordinate to the Italian Comando Supremo in Rome and thus to the Italian Government. Accordingly, Rommel's military activity as commander of the Axis forces in North Africa has no relevance to the issue of alleged atrocities against parts of the civilian population ordered and carried out by the Italian colonial authorities which ruled over the civilian population and had sole responsibility for any actions affecting it. Any action ordered by the Italian Government against the civilian population in North Africa was transmitted through the Italian civilian authorities, and not through Rommel as military commander.

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Re: Behind the Battle Lines:Italian Atrocities and the Persecution of Arabs,Berbers,and Jews in North Africa during WW2

Post by RedTelephone » 13 Apr 2023 19:29

michael mills wrote:
12 Apr 2023 12:17
What does all the huffing and puffing about what Rommel may or may not have known about events in Europe in 1939 and 1940 in Europe have to do with the subject of this thread, which is alleged Italian atrocities against the native populations of Italian colonial possessions in Africa, in particular in Libya?

If Red Telephone and urmel want to indulge in a bit of woke Rommel-bashing, they should do so in an appropriate thread, not here. Rommel's role in North Africa was limited to the command of the Axis military forces operating in that theatre, and as such he had no authority over the civilian population which rested with the Italian colonial authorities. As military commander, Rommel was subordinate to the Italian Comando Supremo in Rome and thus to the Italian Government. Accordingly, Rommel's military activity as commander of the Axis forces in North Africa has no relevance to the issue of alleged atrocities against parts of the civilian population ordered and carried out by the Italian colonial authorities which ruled over the civilian population and had sole responsibility for any actions affecting it. Any action ordered by the Italian Government against the civilian population in North Africa was transmitted through the Italian civilian authorities, and not through Rommel as military commander.
I think it is perfectly valid to comment on the most iconic German general of the whole war who for 99% of people along with Monty are probably the only people they can name from the the North Africa war.
I was Simply saying he was like the other generals ( in the main) regards atrocities occurring in his area of operations -whoever may carried them out.
Im not saying he ordered them Michael or that he was a ‘ baddie’ in the overall scheme of Nazi war aims.

Im sorry if Ive hurt your feelings commenting on a negative aspect of Rommel. Like it or not the Germans and Italians worked together and were often- though not always- complicit in each others crimes- largely against the same targets.
To imply that their actions were done in total isolation is not realistic.

Im sure you’ve watched the rather good Mark Felton doco on the topic of The Afrika Korps which was very informative.
Do you feel that that Mark Felton is ‘ woke’ too?

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