Julius Streicher

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Tarpon27
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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 02:45

Michael Mills wrote:

Streicher did openly express his hatred of Jews and call for their extermination, but when the German Government agencies made their decisions, the last thing they had in mind were Streicher's mad vapourings.Their decisions to kill Jews were based on quite rational criteria, eg whether they could be used for work or not.


That is quite a statement. IOW, none of the surviving documentation you have read, has any "German Government agencies", killing Jews for reasons outside of "quite rational criteria"?

IOW, the fear that Jews were, by and large, the proponents of Bolshevik insurrection were "quite rational criteria"?

A key word is your use of the term "rational".

An irrational fear of Jewish Communists is inherently not a "quite rational criteria".

Killing Jewish Commissars in the East was "rational" as was killing Jewish shopkeepers, merchants, and peasant farmers, plus their wives and children? None of which were exploitable labor?

If I recall correctly, I remember reading the account of the occupation in Poland where the valued and skilled Jewish workers in the local factories of one village were being killed over the protests of the local German commander who was losing his labor force. He complained that the region was being stripped off its ability to economically be exploited, it's skilled laborers being killed because they were Jews.

Mark

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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 12:14


Exchange Of Letters Between Reichskommissar Lohse and the Ministry For The Eastern Territories, Concerning The "Final Solution"


Riga, November 15, 1941

Reichskommissar for Ostland

IIa 4 M.219/41g

Secret

To

Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories



Re: Execution of Jews

in reply to letter I/259141 of October 31, 1941

Report from: Government Counselor Trampedach



I have forbidden the unauthorized ("wild") executions of Jews in Libau because the manner in which they were carried out was irresponsible.

Will you please inform me whether your inquiry of October 31 should be interpreted as a directive to liquidate all the Jews in Ostland? Is this to be done regardless of age, sex, and economic requirements (for instance, the Wehrmacht's demand for skilled workers in the armament industry)? Of course the cleansing of Ostland of Jews is a most important task; its solution, however, must be in accord with the requirements of war production.

So far I have not been able to find such a directive either in the regulations concerning the Jewish question in the "Brown Portfolio" (Braune Mappe) or in any other decree.

L[ohse]

PS-3663.



Berlin, December 18, 1941

Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories

Nr. I/1/157/41



To

Reichskommissar for Ostland

Riga



Re: Jewish question

in reply to your letter of November 15, 1941

The Jewish question has presumably been clarified meanwhile by means of verbal discussion. In principle, economic considerations are not to be taken into account in the settlement of the problem. It is further requested that any questions that arise be settled directly with the Higher SS and Police Leader (Hoeherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer).

f/Braeutigam

PS-3666.


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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 12:15


Order by Reichskommissar Lohse to Halt the Killing of Jewish Skilled Workers, December 1941


Riga, December [2], 1941

Reichskommissar for Ostland

IIa Diary No. 220/41g

To

Reichskommissar for Ostland

Higher SS and Police Leader (Hoeherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer) in Riga

Generalkommissare

in Reval

Riga

Kovno

Minsk

For info: Commander of the Wehrmacht for Ostland in Riga

The Chief Quartermaster (Chefintendant) of the Wehrmacht Command in Ostland has lodged a complaint that armament plants and repair workshops have been deprived of Jewish skilled workers through their liquidation, and that they cannot be replaced there at the present time.

I request most emphatically that the liquidation of Jews employed as skilled workers in armament plants and repair workshops of the Wehrmacht who cannot be replaced at present by local personnel be prevented.

Agreement on which of the Jewish workers are to be considered irreplaceable will be reached with the Gebietskommissare (Department of Social Administration).

Provision is to be made as quickly as possible for the training of suitable local personnel as skilled workers.

The same applies to Jewish workers in enterprises which do not serve the purpose of the Wehrmacht directly, but have important tasks to carry out within the framework of the war economy.

PS-3664.


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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 12:17


Extract From a Report by Karl Jaeger, Commander Of Einsatzkommando 3, on the Extermination Of Lithuanian Jews, 1941


Commander of the Security Police and the SD

Einsatzkommando 3

Kovno, December 1, 1941

Reich Secret Document

Final Summary of Executions carried out in the operating area of EK [Einsatzkommando] 3 up to December 1, 1941

...I can confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania. There are no more Jews in Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families.

These number:

in Shavli, about 4,500

in Kovno, about 15,000

in Vilna, about 15,000

I wanted to eliminate the working Jews and their families as well, but the Civil Administration (Reichskommissar) and the Wehrmacht attacked me most sharply and issued a prohibition against having these Jews and their families shot.

The goal of clearing Lithuania of Jews could only be achieved through the establishment of a specially selected Mobile Commando under the command of SS Obersturmfuehrer Hamann, who adopted my aims fully and who was able to ensure the cooperation of the Lithuanian Partisans and the Civil Authorities concerned.

The carrying out of such Aktionen is first of all an organizational problem. The decision to clear each sub-district systematically of Jews called for a thorough preparation for each Aktion and the study of local conditions. The Jews had to be concentrated in one or more localities and, in accordance with their numbers, a site had to be selected and pits dug. The marching distance from the concentration points to the pits averaged 4 to 5 kms. The Jews were brought to the place of execution in groups of 500, with at least 2 kms. distance between groups... All the officers and men of my command in Kovno took an active part in the Grossaktionen in Kovno. Only one official of the intelligence corps was released from participation on account of illness.

I consider the Aktionen against the Jews of EK 3 to be virtually completed. The remaining working Jews and Jewesses are urgently needed, and I can imagine that this manpower will continue to be needed urgently after the winter has ended. I am of the opinion that the male working Jews should be sterilized immediately to prevent reproduction. Should any Jewess nevertheless become pregnant, she is to be liquidated....

Jaeger

SS Standartenfuehrer

Yad Vashem Archives, O-18/245


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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 12:19


Extract from the Commissar's Order for "Operation Barbarossa," June 6, 1941


June 6, 1941

Staff Command Secret Document

Chief Only

Only Through Officer

High Command of the Wehrmacht

WFST [Armed Forces Operational Staff] Div. L (VI/Qu)

No. 44822/41 g.K Chiefs

Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars

In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of humanity or international law. In particular, the political commissars of all kinds, who are the real bearers of resistance, can be expected to mete out treatment to our prisoners that is full of hate, cruel and inhuman.

The army must be aware of the following:

1. In this battle it would be mistaken to show mercy or respect for international law towards such elements. They constitute a danger to our own security and to the rapid pacification of the occupied territories.

2. The barbaric, Asiatic fighting methods are originated by the political commissars. Action must therefore be taken against them immediately, without further consideration, and with all severity. Therefore, when they are picked up in battle or resistance, they are, as a matter of principle, to be finished immediately with a weapon.

In addition, the following regulations are to be observed:

Operational Areas

1) Political commissars operating against our armies are to be dealt with in accordance with the decree on judicial provisions in the area of "Barbarossa." This applies to commissars of every type and rank, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or incitement to sabotage....

NOKW-484.


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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 12:20


Extract from Guidelines by Heydrich for Higher SS and Police Leaders in the Occupied Territories of the Soviet Union, July 2, 1941


Berlin, July 2, 1941

Chief of the Security Police and the SD

B. No. IV 1100/41 top secret

B. No. g. Rs. 7/41

EK 3

Reich Secret Document

a) To the Higher SS and Police Leader (Hoeherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer)

SS Obergruppenfuehrer Jeckeln...

b) To the Higher SS and Police Leader

SS Gruppenfuehrer von dem Bach...

c) To the Higher SS and Police Leader

SS Gruppenfuehrer Pruetzmann...

d) To the Higher SS and Police Leader

SS Oberfuehrer Korsemann...



Owing to the fact that the Chief of the Order Police invited to Berlin the Higher SS and Police Leaders and commissioned them to take part in Operation Barbarossa without informing me of this in time, I was unfortunately not in a position also to provide them with basic instructions for the sphere of jurisdiction of the Security Police and SD.

In the following I make known briefly the most important instructions given by me to the Einsatzgruppen and Kommandos of the Security Police and the SD, with the request to take note of them.

...4) Executions

All the following are to be executed:

Officials of the Comintern (together with professional Communist politicians in general);

top- and medium-level officials and radical lower-level officials of the Party, Central Committee and district and sub-district committees;

peoples Commissars;

Jews in Party and State employment, and other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, inciters, etc.)

insofar as they are, in any particular case, required or no longer required, to supply information on political or economic matters which are of special importance for the further operations of the Security Police, or for the economic reconstruction of the Occupied Territories....

Yad Vashem Archives 0-4/53-1.


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Post by Ebusitanus » 21 Jul 2003 12:21

IMHO Trapon, you are departing from the main topic no matter how interesting those "irrational proofs" for German behaviour with jews.

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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 12:23


Provisional Directives by Lohse, Reichskommissar For Ostland, Concerning the Treatment of Jews


August 13, 1941

The Reichskommissar for Ostland

IIa 4

Secret!

Provisional Directives for the treatment of Jews in the area of the Reichskommissariat Ostland.

The final solution of the Jewish question in the area of the Reichskommissariat Ostland will be in accordance with the instructions in my address of July 27, 1941, in Kovno.

Insofar as further measures are taken, particularly by the Security Police, to carry out my verbal instructions, they will not be affected by the following provisional directives. It is merely the purpose of these provisional directives to assure that where, and as long as, further measures for the final solution are not possible, minimum measures will be taken by the Generalkommissare or Gebietskommissare.

I. a. For the time being only such Jews who are citizens of the German Reich, the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, of the former Republics of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, of the U.S.S.R. or of its component states, or stateless Jews, will be subject to these directives.

I. b. Other Jews of foreign citizenship, Mischlinge, and spouses of Jews who do not wish to share the fate of their Jewish spouses, will be denied permission to leave the area of R.K. [Reichskommissariat] Ostland as it is a military area. They are to be kept under surveillance. In addition they may be subjected to the following [measures] among others: Obligation to report daily, a ban on moving [from their place of residence], assignment to a specific dwelling, a ban on leaving the city area, limitations on moving about. If necessary they may be taken into police custody until a further decision is made.

II. A Jew is a person descended from at least three grandparents who are fully Jewish by race.

In addition, a Jew is a person descended from one or two grandparents Jewish by race, if he

a) belongs or belonged to the Jewish religious community, or

b) on June 20, 1941, or subsequently, was married to, or living in

common-law marriage with, a person who is Jewish within the

definition of these directives, or who now or in the future enters

into such a relationship.

III. In case of doubt, the Gebietskommissar or Stadtskommissar will decide who is a Jew in accordance with his best judgment and within the definition of these directives.

IV. The Generalkommissar in whose areas a civil administration has been introduced will provide immediately for the following:

a) The Jews are to be registered by means of an order to report by name, sex, age and address. The records of the Jewish Communities can be used as a further basis for the registration, as well as the statements of reliable local residents.

b) It will be decreed that Jews identify themselves by the wearing of constantly visible yellow six-cornered stars, at least 10 cms. across, on the left side of the chest and in the center of the back.

c) The following is forbidden to Jews:

1. To move from their locality or change their place of residence without the permission of the Gebietskommissar or Stadtskommissar.

2. The use of sidewalks, public transportation...and automobiles.

3. The use of recreational facilities and institutions serving the public (resort areas and bathing facilities, parks and open spaces, playgrounds and athletic fields).

4. To attend theaters or movie houses, libraries, or museums.

5. To attend schools of any type.

6. To possess automobiles or radios.

7. [Kosher] slaughtering.

d) Jewish doctors and dentists may treat or advise Jewish patients only. Where ghettos or camps are set up they will be distributed through them for the care of the inmates.

Jewish druggists are permitted to practice their profession only in ghettos and camps, according to need. Drugstores previously managed by Jews are to be transferred, under trusteeship, to Aryan druggists.

Jewish veterinarians are forbidden to practice their profession.

e) Jews are forbidden the exercise of the professions and occupations listed below:

1. Attorney-at-law...

2. Banking, money-changing and pawnbroking.

3. Middleman and agents.

4. Trade in real estate.

5. Traveling peddlers.

f) The following is decreed for the handling of Jewish property:

1. General:

The property of the Jewish population is to be confiscated and placed in safekeeping....

2. Compulsory Registration:

All Jewish property is to be registered....

3. Compulsory Surrender:

Jewish property is to be surrendered on special demand. The demand may be made by general proclamation or by order to certain individuals.

The Generalkommissare will order the immediate surrender of the following by proclamation:

a) Local and foreign currency.

b) Securities...

c) Valuables of all kinds (coins and gold and silver bullion, other precious metals, jewelry, precious stones, etc.).

4. For their subsistence, the Jewish population may retain:

a) Household items needed for minimum requirements (furniture, clothing, linens).

b) A daily sum of money amounting to 0.20 RM (2 Rubles) for every Jewish member of the household. The money to be released one month in advance.

V. The following further measures are to be strived for vigorously, with due consideration for local, and particularly economic, conditions.

a) The countryside is to be cleansed of Jews.

b) The Jews are to be removed from all trade, and especially from trade in agricultural products and other foodstuffs.

c) The Jews are to be forbidden residence in localities that are of economic, military or ideological importance, and also in resorts and spas.

d) As far as possible the Jews are to be concentrated in cities or in sections of large cities, where the population is already predominantly Jewish. There, ghettos are to be established, and the Jews are to be prohibited from leaving these ghettos.

In the ghettos the Jews are to receive only as much food as the rest of the population can spare, but not more than is required for their bare subsistence. The same applies to the allocation of other essential goods.

The inmates of the ghettos will regulate their internal affairs by an administration of their own, which will be supervised by the Gebietskommissar or Stadtskommissar or a person appointed by him. Jews can be assigned as police for internal order. They may be equipped at most with rubber truncheons and sticks, and are to be identified by wearing white armbands with a yellow Jewish star on the right upper arm.

The external hermetic sealing of the ghetto is to be carried out by auxiliary police drawn from the local population.

Permission must be obtained from the Gebietskommissar before any person may enter the ghetto.

e) Jews fit for work will be drafted for forced labor as required. The economic interests of deserving members of the local population should not be harmed by the use of Jewish forced labor. Forced labor can be performed by working parties outside the ghettos, or in the ghettos, or, where a ghetto has not yet been established, by single persons outside (for instance, in the workshop of the Jew).

Payment for the work need not be based on performance, but should cover only the bare subsistence of the forced laborer and members of his family not capable of working, taking into account other monies at his disposal.

The private establishments and persons on whose behalf the forced labor is being carried out will pay an appropriate sum into the payments office of the Gebietskommissar, which in turn, will pay the forced laborers. Special orders will be issued regarding the accounting for these monies.

VI. The Generalkommissare will decide whether to order the measures under Para. V. for the entire districts at one time or whether to leave their introduction to be carried out separately by the Gebietskommissare. The Generalkommissare are also authorized to issue more detailed instruction within the framework of these directives or to instruct their Gebietskommissar to do so.

Distribution:

Reichskommissariat

Higher SS and Police Leader (Hoeherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer)

Generalkommissar: Estonia

Lithuania

Latvia

Byelorussia

PS-1138.


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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 12:26


Order by Keitel Banning Wehrmacht Contacts with Jews in the Occupied Territories in the East


September 12, 1941

High Command of the Wehrmacht

WFST [Armed Forces Operation Staff] Div. L (IV/Qu)

No. 02041/41 Secret

Fuehrer Headquarters, September 12, 1941

Re: Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories

...The struggle against Bolshevism demands ruthless and energetic action, and first of all against the Jews as well, as the main bearers of Bolshevism.

There will, therefore, be no cooperation whatever between the Wehrmacht and the Jewish population, whose attitude is openly or secretly anti-German, and no use is to be made of individual Jews for any preferential auxiliary services for the Wehrmacht. Under no circumstances are papers to be issued by Military Offices to Jews confirming that they are employed for purposes of the Wehrmacht.

The only exception to be made is the use of Jews in specially organized labor columns, which are only to be employed under German supervision.

It is requested to make this order known to the troops.

Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht

signed Keitel

NOKW-3292.


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Post by Tarpon27 » 21 Jul 2003 13:02

IMHO Trapon, you are departing from the main topic no matter how interesting those "irrational proofs" for German behaviour with jews.


You are probably correct, but it also seems that Mr. Mills discounts Streicher's malovent propaganda as a Nazi official, to then state that the decision to exterminate Jews by his "German Government agencies" was based on "quite rational criteria", his "...eg whether they could be used for work or not", and certainly not due to the anti-semitic rantings of Streicher.

Apparently, another "quite rational criteria", expressed by Mr. Mills on previous threads is the fear that Jews were Communist revolutionaries, even though he has stated on threads that that fear may have been in error. Which means that it is not a "quite rational criteria". Rather difficult to have it both ways. It appears to me, at least, that Mr. Mills believes that the German Government agencies killed Jews because they were all threatening, revolutionary Communists and useless eaters. "Quite rational criteria", if you believe either premise as the indication of a government which is quite rational, let alone having to discard the racial component of Nazi ideology.

In the US, we have fairly strident proponents of free speech. The American Civil Liberties Union, a liberal attorney's group, has defended, for example the right of American Neo-Nazis to march and assemble; see Skokie, Illinois. (You still cannot yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater, however, under the protection of free speech.)

Mr. Mills uses the argument of abortion clinics as an analogy to Julius's newspaper, while ignoring the fact that the anti-abortion movement in the US is not headed by a member of the one ruling party, that there is a free press to cover such events, that violent actions against abortion clinics will result in criminal prosecution, that pro-choice proponents are free to protest and organize, and that a free press can present all sides to the issue...in direct contrast to Streicher's own stands on Jews, and in context to the state of open debate in Nazi Germany where Streicher ruled. Unless, of course, Mr. Mills wishes to make the argument that Nazi Germany allowed the same dissent as the US in 2003.

In fact, Mr. Mills then goes on to state that German Government agencies exterminated Jews, not because of a few decades of militant anti-semitism, political policy, exploitable fears, but for "quite rational criteria".

If you contemplate the argument, only briefly, it is quite surreal that a man like Mr. Mills could make such a statement.

Mark

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Post by michael mills » 21 Jul 2003 23:38

The essential issue is whether there is any demonstrable causative relationship between Streicher's anti-Semitic rantings, deriving from his personal sexual obsessions, and the various orders issued by German authorities for the treatment of Jews, such that those rantings were a necessary pre-condition for the issuing of those orders.

I see none. If Tarpon27 can demonstrate such a relationship ith hard evidence, he is invited to do so.

Remember that pornographic anti-Semitic rantings are not in themselves a crime deserving the death penalty, at least not in an enlightened society. At most they are punishable as incitement by fines, or are a subject for civil action for slander (Streicher was in fact sued many times, and, so far as I recall, did serve some time for criminal libel).

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Post by Xanthro » 22 Jul 2003 00:50

michael mills wrote:The essential issue is whether there is any demonstrable causative relationship between Streicher's anti-Semitic rantings, deriving from his personal sexual obsessions, and the various orders issued by German authorities for the treatment of Jews, such that those rantings were a necessary pre-condition for the issuing of those orders.

I see none. If Tarpon27 can demonstrate such a relationship ith hard evidence, he is invited to do so.

Remember that pornographic anti-Semitic rantings are not in themselves a crime deserving the death penalty, at least not in an enlightened society. At most they are punishable as incitement by fines, or are a subject for civil action for slander (Streicher was in fact sued many times, and, so far as I recall, did serve some time for criminal libel).


When the level of pornographic rantings rise to the level to induce violence, then you are guilty.

The whole argument is so completed inane it defies belief. You wouldn't be making such an unsupportable absolute freedom of speech argument if the victims were other than Jew.

If someone stands on a street corner and starts screaming over and over, "Kill the blacks, they raped by daughter. Kill the Blacks, the raped my sister" and someone then kills a Black person, you are as guilty as the person who commited the murder.

You don't get off by saying, "I just said kill the Blacks, I didn't say kill THAT black"

If you advocate direct violence, then you are guilty for that violence.

The difference between Streicher and the aquited is that they weren't advocates, they simply held the belief that Jews should be murdered. They didn't actually tell people to go and do so.

Xanthro

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Post by Kaan Caglar » 22 Jul 2003 01:15

Here in Turkey there are many racist people(even in politics), they want to burn the Kurds,
A turkish businessman once said,"The kurds should be destroyed for world peace",
Now think, if our government now destroys the kurds;this man should be sentenced to death??
No way,its silly,
And yes,the winner takes it all!
Regards
Kaan

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Post by Xanthro » 22 Jul 2003 01:32

_KaaN_ wrote:Here in Turkey there are many racist people(even in politics), they want to burn the Kurds,
A turkish businessman once said,"The kurds should be destroyed for world peace",
Now think, if our government now destroys the kurds;this man should be sentenced to death??
No way,its silly,
And yes,the winner takes it all!
Regards
Kaan


There's a difference in scope.

Let's assume a Turkish politician states, "Turkey should kill the Kurds" then Turkey starts killing the Kurds. Personally, I think the politician in question deserves a hanging, but let's compare another scenario.

Let's assume you don't think he should hang.

At what point do you assign guilt?

In Streicher's case, this isn't someone who simply stated publically that Jews should be murdered. He did so as an official of the Nazi party, and he did so KNOWING that such murders were taking place.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to go around asking for people to be murdered and then act as if you had nothing to do with it.

Xanthro

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Post by Kaan Caglar » 22 Jul 2003 01:46

Correct but Herbert Von Karajan(the famous conducter) joined the NSDAP, he knew the murderers too, but he was set free at the end of war...
If they killed everybody took place in NSDAP,for the knowledge of holocaust,then it is OK... But they didn't..

He shouldn't have been sentenced to death but he shouldn't have been set free either..
Kaan

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