European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

[Sheldrake]

England also followed their policy with its etnic german population even tried to deport German Jewish refugees..and pro Nazi Germans to Canada until the ship was sunk by a U-Boat....

Pre WW2 the British ndid not want any Jewish refugees. In 1940 one of Churchill's governments early actions was to detain all enemy ailiens, includong lots of German jews, in internment camps on the Isle of Man. Later the Beiurish relented and allowed security cleared Germans to serve in HM Forces, initally in the Pioneer corps. They did serve in many branches of our armed forces including the commandos. NO 3 \troop of10 Commando were the real inglorious basterds
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/no ... 0-commando

[wm]

Was it "the British did not want any Jewish refugees" or "the British did not want any immigrants"?

[LineDoggie]

The Japanese (or rather the Africans and Asians) were forbidden to emigrate to the US, but those two people were born in Hawaii, so they had to be citizens.

It really didn't matter anyway. The point is their betrayal fuelled the spy/saboteur paranoia in the US (although such paranoia was common to all belligerents.)
History is about understanding the reasons why things happened, not constantly judging people and events according to one of the moral systems.

Vastly more Poles were collaborators than the Nisei/Issei

[wm]

Are you saying Roosevelt should have interned the Polish minority instead of the Japanese?

[RedTelephone]

Its very sad isn’t it that both Europe and the Islamic world has lost its culturally rich Jewish communities to such a huge extent.
However attempting to draw a parallel by using the Nazi term of ‘Juden Frei ‘ ie the Nazis deliberate extermination policy, and the reactive events post creation of State of Israel is deeply flawed and misleading . Interesting that there are still 8500 Jews in Iran- the arch nemesis since 1979 apparently - of Israel.
I would remind the poster that there are many right wing Israelis whose stated dream is an ‘ Arab Frei’ Israel.
Reaching back into history one could almost say that Europe via the Nazis ‘ solved’ its centuries old ‘ Jewish Problem’ by enabling and supercharging the Zionist dream of a Jewish homeland not in Europe or Africa or The New World ( Uganda was at one point considered by Zionists) but in ‘Arabia’. The current borders of the state of Israel have little in common with the Kingdom of Israelites of the Bible.
The Jews of Europe are ironically the last European colonisers of an Asian territory.
Like all colonies or outposts in hostile territory it relies on massive outside economic and military support ( the USA ) to exist as a viable entity. Tragically those who have emigrated from their own country to the dream of the ‘ biblical homeland’ may find themselves one day stateless and wandering yet again should that support ever be withdrawn. Which one day it will be. Perhaps they will have to return to their countries of origin much as many white South Africans of British origin chose to come to the UK after the fall of apartheid following 100 years of ‘ biblical’ white minority rule.
It always struck me how many high profile survivors / resistors of the Holocaust - including Simon Wiesenthal and Marek Edelmann ( Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Leader) actively chose NOT to leave Europe and live in Israel as they were opposed to what they saw as extreme nationalism repeating itself.
History always repeats..

[LAstryAGAIN]

Palestine Arab Population from Wikipedia
1948 1,400,000
2000 3,111,000

Simon Wiesenthal was born in the Polish part of the old Austrain-Hungarian empire.....as for being a resident in Austria he was a voice of conciouse for a county that gave birth to Adolf Hitler;Adolf Eichmann;Alois Brunner; Odilo Globocnik, Hermann Höfl, Franz Stangl; Gustav Wagner; Kurt Waldheim ; "Butcher of Riga" Eduard Roschman and not least Karl Silberbauer

Marek Edelmann was a different story he was never a Zionist..in fact he was a lifelong member of Jewish Bundist which advocated Jewish Cultural assimilation to countries such as Poland and Russia....and was in fact Anti-religious and Anti-Zionist.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundism

[wm]

Post-ww2 majority of European Jews, as far as I know, emigrated to the US, Canada, and other Western countries - not to Palestine.
That shows the conquest of Palestine wasn't really needed.
Even emigration from post-ww2 Europe wasn't really needed; it was quite a safe place.
And even from Eastern Europe, although admittedly murderous communism wasn't to everyone's taste.

About the massive support from the US - it's just 2(?) percent of Israeli GDP.
And similar massive support the US sends to Egypt too - for the same reasons.

btw Edelmann was an idealistic communist who never failed to call his right-wing brothers in arms from the Ghetto - fascists.

[CogCalgary]

Post-ww2 majority of European Jews, as far as I know, emigrated to the US, Canada, and other Western countries - not to Palestine.
That shows the conquest of Palestine wasn't really needed.
Even emigration from post-ww2 Europe wasn't really needed; it was quite a safe place.
And even from Eastern Europe, although admittedly murderous communism wasn't to everyone's taste.

About the massive support from the US - it's just 2(?) percent of Israeli GDP.
And similar massive support the US sends to Egypt too - for the same reasons.

btw Edelmann was an idealistic communist who never failed to call his right-wing brothers in arms from the Ghetto - fascists.

Palestine immediately after the war was very unstable.
After 48 they possibly would have to work on a kibbutz.
Western countries had mature economies.

[RedTelephone]

Thanks all for the replies. Always good to have different perspectives that make one question assumptions or accepted facts.
Wiki says popl of Israel currently 8.3-9 million of which 75% Jews( majority European/US/Oceania origin , 20% Arabs and 5% other( Druze, Bedouin etc). Apparently its lost 600k-1million Jews to emigration in recent years ( I couldnt see what timescale that was over) due to economic and political troubles. There are ongoing US settlers moving in but dont know numbers.
Time will tell if it succeeds as a permanent ‘ outpost’ in a hostile region or if it withers over the next century through ‘ battle fatigue’ or simple attrition from younger generations.
It reminds me a bit of the Northern Ireland problem.. once seen as totally insoluble.
Significant numbers of ordinary people from both sides just got so fed up with the cycle of hate and violence that they left if they could..
That left the old, the poor, the sick and the zealots and a few optimists.
Despite the decades old mantra of ‘ we dont talk to terrorists’ thats just exactly what everyone involved simply had to do. But it relied on significant genuine commitment from both the UK and US govts to achieve it.
Being in state of siege whether real or perceived rarely brings sustainable longevity in its current form.

[wm]

I don't think Israel is going to disappear ever. It has the huge advantage of being a racially homogenous country - inherently stable and similar to Poland or 20th-century Germany.
And it really doesn't have major enemies, the rockets across the border are usually harmless and don't threaten population centers. Hamas is barely tolerated in Liban. Iran is rocking the boat mostly for internal political reasons (i.e., to keep the ruling elite in power).

The problem is totally insoluble but manageable. There is no example in history of a mature culture accepting its contest (unless it's a tiny and powerless culture). So the only solution is ethnic cleansing of the hostile minority, and maybe it will eventually happen.

I have some doubts about that population loss. There is a constant grass-root recruitment effort in all Jewish social sites for new citizens supported by Jewish media, in my opinion, quite successful.

[CogCalgary]

England also followed their policy with its etnic german population even tried to deport German Jewish refugees..and pro Nazi Germans to Canada until the ship was sunk by a U-Boat....

Pre WW2 the British ndid not want any Jewish refugees. In 1940 one of Churchill's governments early actions was to detain all enemy ailiens, includong lots of German jews, in internment camps on the Isle of Man. Later the Beiurish relented and allowed security cleared Germans to serve in HM Forces, initally in the Pioneer corps. They did serve in many branches of our armed forces including the commandos. NO 3 \troop of10 Commando were the real inglorious basterds
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/no ... 0-commando

The British sent some Jewish men to Camp Ripples in New Brunswick Canada.In the forest.It was filled with German soldiers,a high percentage were hard core Nazis.

Where did No 3 operate?

[RedTelephone]

I don't think Israel is going to disappear ever. It has the huge advantage of being a racially homogenous country - inherently stable and similar to Poland or 20th-century Germany.
And it really doesn't have major enemies, the rockets across the border are usually harmless and don't threaten population centers. Hamas is barely tolerated in Liban. Iran is rocking the boat mostly for internal political reasons (i.e., to keep the ruling elite in power).

The problem is totally insoluble but manageable. There is no example in history of a mature culture accepting its contest (unless it's a tiny and powerless culture). So the only solution is ethnic cleansing of the hostile minority, and maybe it will eventually happen.

I have some doubts about that population loss. There is a constant grass-root recruitment effort in all Jewish social sites for new citizens supported by Jewish media, in my opinion, quite successful.

Possibly true.
The analogy with Germany and Poland is incorrect however. These are centuries old countries albeit in Kingdom form pre nationalism.
Israel is a new country of foreign immigrants.
Surrounded by a ‘ hostile’ majority.
Ruling over a ‘ hostile’ minority.
Interesting how a discriminated oppressed people are somehow ‘ hostile’ ..funny that.
Its more like Northern Ireland really( albeit there is an almost equal split Catholic/ Protestant popl) BUT south of the border is majority Catholic.
The Protestants of NI have been there for 400 yrs- kept in power from the UK and their own accumulated advantage. And yet this situation has changed over the last 20 yrs with the realisation that either they leave or unite with Ireland.
The few diehards of ‘ No Surrender’ will die out as they reach old age .
When the cost to US Jewish fundamentalist settlers eventually becomes too high they will return to their US homeland .. or live in a permanent state of seige. It will be their choice.

[gebhk]

Its more like Northern Ireland really

I am not sure that that analogy works completely either. For what it's worth, I had many conversations with colleagues from there who, being medics and senior nurses, were predominantly from the middle classes and up. One trauma consultant summarised what was a general tenor, that the reasons the Troubles were permitted to drag on for so long was because they only affected the poorest and disenfranchised layers of society affecting the better-off very little if at all. Unemployed Catholics fighting unemployed Protestants was not of any great concern to those that who pulled the levers unless it spilled into their streets and therefore there was very little incentive for anyone in power to do anything positive about it. I don't think this is the case in Israel, where terrorist violence seems to affect everyone.

However, ironically, the solution is probably similar. What is required is to provide those disenfranchised and without a stake with a voice and something substantial to lose. I don't see ethnic cleansing being able to solve the problem. The problem isn't that the Arabs in Israel are Arabs; it is that they are disenfranchised and poor. That that is the case and that there are many such poor groups among the Jews themselves, suggests it is a (?dis)function of the economic/political set-up of Israel that such groups should exist. If the Arabs are removed, I would bet pounds sterling to monkey nuts that they would be immediately replaced by another group - say the Ultra-orthodox Jews.

[CogCalgary]

Its more like Northern Ireland really

I am not sure that that analogy works completely either. For what it's worth, I had many conversations with colleagues from there who, being medics and senior nurses, were predominantly from the middle classes and up. One trauma consultant summarised what was a general tenor, that the reasons the Troubles were permitted to drag on for so long was because they only affected the poorest and disenfranchised layers of society affecting the better-off very little if at all. Unemployed Catholics fighting unemployed Protestants was not of any great concern to those that who pulled the levers unless it spilled into their streets and therefore there was very little incentive for anyone in power to do anything positive about it. I don't think this is the case in Israel, where terrorist violence seems to affect everyone.

However, ironically, the solution is probably similar. What is required is to provide those disenfranchised and without a stake with a voice and something substantial to lose. I don't see ethnic cleansing being able to solve the problem. The problem isn't that the Arabs in Israel are Arabs; it is that they are disenfranchised and poor. That that is the case and that there are many such poor groups among the Jews themselves, suggests it is a (?dis)function of the economic/political set-up of Israel that such groups should exist. If the Arabs are removed, I would bet pounds sterling to monkey nuts that they would be immediately replaced by another group - say the Ultra-orthodox Jews.

Are not the ultra orthodox financially supported?
The Arabs fought amongst themselves as well.
The Ottomans ruled for a reason.Just look at their developing tech center.

[RedTelephone]

Its more like Northern Ireland really

I am not sure that that analogy works completely either. For what it's worth, I had many conversations with colleagues from there who, being medics and senior nurses, were predominantly from the middle classes and up. One trauma consultant summarised what was a general tenor, that the reasons the Troubles were permitted to drag on for so long was because they only affected the poorest and disenfranchised layers of society affecting the better-off very little if at all. Unemployed Catholics fighting unemployed Protestants was not of any great concern to those that who pulled the levers unless it spilled into their streets and therefore there was very little incentive for anyone in power to do anything positive about it. I don't think this is the case in Israel, where terrorist violence seems to affect everyone.

However, ironically, the solution is probably similar. What is required is to provide those disenfranchised and without a stake with a voice and something substantial to lose. I don't see ethnic cleansing being able to solve the problem. The problem isn't that the Arabs in Israel are Arabs; it is that they are disenfranchised and poor. That that is the case and that there are many such poor groups among the Jews themselves, suggests it is a (?dis)function of the economic/political set-up of Israel that such groups should exist. If the Arabs are removed, I would bet pounds sterling to monkey nuts that they would be immediately replaced by another group - say the Ultra-orthodox Jews.

You have some very good points there.
Economics being the root issue of so much.