European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
gebhk
Member
Posts: 2516
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by gebhk » 12 Apr 2023 13:16

Are not the ultra orthodox financially supported?
As I understand it (and my understanding is superficial in the extreme, I will freely admit) the Ultra-orthodox are one of the poorest segments if not THE poorest segment of the population with nearly half living below the poverty line.
The Arabs fought amongst themselves as well.
Of course they did - the poor will always fight amongst themselves because they have the strongest incentives to do so. In this respect there is, of course, a parallel with Northern Ireland (and a fairly universal one at that). You are spot-on in raising that issue. My point in respect of the Northern Ireland Troubles was merely that the Catholic v Protestant conflict there was not necessarily along the same lines as the Arab v Jewish conflict in Israel albeit the underlying mechanisms at work being very much the same.

An interesting corrollary to this is that it is not just the poor that suffer from evident poverty. The well-off that come in contact with the poor are also made unhappy by this with quite a bit of data to show that residents of affluent neighbourhoods that border deprived neighbourhoods suffer siginificantly higher rates of depression, suicide and other negative quality-of-life markers compared with control neghbourhoods that do not, even when you control for such factors as being the victim of crime (rich people living near to very poor people are more likely to ber burglarised or mugged - there's a shocker!). Some researchers have put that down to feelings of 'guilt' about ones good fortune - bit like 'survivors guilt'. Be that as it may, some of the better-off allay their discomfort by doing charitable work to help the poor while others (probably the majority) just want the poor removed far, far away so that they no longer have to be inopportuned by them. This, I would suggest, has some obvious implications for many of the conflicts to be seen around the globe, supposedly about ethnicity and religion, etc.
Last edited by gebhk on 12 Apr 2023 13:55, edited 1 time in total.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2516
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by gebhk » 12 Apr 2023 13:53

Hi RedTelephone
You have some very good points there.
Economics being the root issue of so much.
You are too kind, sir. :D Another way of looking at it is that the lower down Maslow's Hierarchy your needs lie, the more likely you are to use violence to satisfy them!

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3566
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 17:14
Location: London

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by Sheldrake » 12 Apr 2023 20:33

CogCalgary wrote:
12 Apr 2023 00:55
Sheldrake wrote:
04 Apr 2023 20:08
LAstryAGAIN wrote:
04 Apr 2023 16:00
England also followed their policy with its etnic german population even tried to deport German Jewish refugees..and pro Nazi Germans to Canada until the ship was sunk by a U-Boat....
Pre WW2 the British ndid not want any Jewish refugees. In 1940 one of Churchill's governments early actions was to detain all enemy ailiens, includong lots of German jews, in internment camps on the Isle of Man. Later the Beiurish relented and allowed security cleared Germans to serve in HM Forces, initally in the Pioneer corps. They did serve in many branches of our armed forces including the commandos. NO 3 \troop of10 Commando were the real inglorious basterds
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/no ... 0-commando
The British sent some Jewish men to Camp Ripples in New Brunswick Canada.In the forest.It was filled with German soldiers,a high percentage were hard core Nazis.

Where did No 3 operate?
You casn piece it together from thsese links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._10_(I ... )_Commando
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/no ... 0-commando

https://www.commandoveterans.org/10Commando3troopROH


I can also recommend this book
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kings-Most-Loy ... 0750947004

By 1944 quite a few German and austiran interned Jews ended up as reinforcements for 21st Army Group.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8289
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by wm » 12 Apr 2023 20:44

RedTelephone wrote:
12 Apr 2023 10:19
Possibly true.
The analogy with Germany and Poland is incorrect however. These are centuries old countries albeit in Kingdom form pre nationalism.
Although Jewish nationalism (and chauvinism) is at least 1500 years old. As old as the Talmud, where examples of both are easy to find.
That was obvious to Polish nationalists in interbellum Poland. That such a mature and ancient (and actually superior) culture simply couldn't be assimilated.

RedTelephone
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: 09 Apr 2023 16:08
Location: Australia

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by RedTelephone » 13 Apr 2023 19:06

wm wrote:
12 Apr 2023 20:44
RedTelephone wrote:
12 Apr 2023 10:19
Possibly true.
The analogy with Germany and Poland is incorrect however. These are centuries old countries albeit in Kingdom form pre nationalism.
Although Jewish nationalism (and chauvinism) is at least 1500 years old. As old as the Talmud, where examples of both are easy to find.
That was obvious to Polish nationalists in interbellum Poland. That such a mature and ancient (and actually superior) culture simply couldn't be assimilated.
“ and actually superior culture simply couldn’t be assimilated”
Really??
You feel that Slavic/ Germanic/ Nordic traditions are inferior to Jewish ones?
Dangerous words I think. No?
Try changing the words ‘ Jewish’ to ‘ Germanic/ Nordic’and read it back to yourself.
You appear to completely ignore the huge amount of assimilation / intermarriage that occurred in the industrialised and educated cities of Poland/ Germany / Czechoslovakia and Hungary over the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Are you saying that it was not possible to integrate Jewishness into a Polish or German identity? ( as I understand both the Zionists and the Nazis believed/ believe).

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8289
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by wm » 13 Apr 2023 21:43

Well, after reading so much about the occupation and the Holocaust, I really feel nothing.
That (about superior culture) wrote the guru of the movement Roman Dmowski. Of course, he meant the orthodox Jews, people who dominated in the Second Republic.
And can't be denied that Orthodox Jews are on the roll in Israel and all over the world today.

The Polish and Jewish elites were thin as paper, and the Jewish ones were partially orthodox. I really don't believe there was a lot of intermarriage between them.
And every denomination had its own marriage law, so it was hard to intermarry anyway.

RedTelephone
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: 09 Apr 2023 16:08
Location: Australia

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by RedTelephone » 14 Apr 2023 09:07

wm wrote:
13 Apr 2023 21:43
Well, after reading so much about the occupation and the Holocaust, I really feel nothing.
That (about superior culture) wrote the guru of the movement Roman Dmowski. Of course, he meant the orthodox Jews, people who dominated in the Second Republic.
And can't be denied that Orthodox Jews are on the roll in Israel and all over the world today.

The Polish and Jewish elites were thin as paper, and the Jewish ones were partially orthodox. I really don't believe there was a lot of intermarriage between them.
And every denomination had its own marriage law, so it was hard to intermarry anyway.
Thanks for your perspective . Always appreciate different views and those with detailed knowledge.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2516
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by gebhk » 14 Apr 2023 12:39

I suspect the fundamental flaw is treating cultures (and races for that matter, although the two, albeit related are not the same) as monolithic blocks that emerge seemingly from nothing. This is, of course, not the case. There is no such thing as 'old' or 'new' cultures, cultures are of the same age and simply evolve over time from common ancestors just as species do. Eventually they either evolve into something else or become extinct.

As for the 'superior thing? What makes a culture 'superior'? All that matters is how successful it is for those who follow it. Much as the parameters of a species, it will persist as long as it is advantageous or at least neutral (ie neither advantageous or harmful) - and that this is as much a result of uncontrollable factors affecting the environment as anything else. So success could be measured by the number of people following a particular culture and/or how long it persists. However, as with race, we are faced with the insurmountable problem of defining a section of continuum entirely arbitrarily so whatever comes out of such an exercise is very likely to be much tainted by the biases of the researchers.

Which brings us to the 'so what' question. If the Orthodox culture is superior (ie more successful), for arguments sake in Poland, the Poles will adopt it and become more successful than they were before. Or vice-versa. Or both will adopt the most useful apects of the other becoming closer over time (almost universally, the course of events - which is why pretty much every older Jew I ever spoke to in the UK said that the Polish and German Jews who immigrated into the UK around WW2 were a lot more like Poles and Germans respectively than they were like British Jews). I would suggest, therefore, that not only was integration possible but well on its way. Otherwise, if the cultures are equally successful, they would coexist - albeit, by providing alternative strategies, making the whole stronger and more resilient to stresses. And the problem with any of that is?

Well, fairly straightforwardly, the problem is that very few people like change. It is a scientifically proven fact that the world reaches perfection at the age 14 of the beholder. After that it is all the way downhill. You can see that in the endless letters to the newspapers moaning about the 'incorrect' use of the English language (ie being used differently to how they learned it in school). As one wag put it recently - what's with this modern Norman habit of putting 's' on the end of words to indicate pluralilty (eg cows). What's wrong with the English 'en' (eg oxen)?

Now the vast majority of us accept change grudgingly because we are sensible enough to realise that it is necessary and inevitable. On the extremes (as with all aspects of human personality), there are those at one end who will leap headfirst at any new idea and at the other, those who will resist change to the death (said the man who doesn't drive a car and does not use a mobile phone). The point is we need them too, because nothing would change without the former and the latter are a useful brake because not all new ideas turn out a well as everyone else thinks they will (much research into this has been done with regard to prescribing patterns of doctors. It is undoubtedly a fact that many lives have been saved by 'late adopters'/'non-adopters'). It is just not great when people from these extremes achieve uncontrolled power and start deciding for everyone else what they should believe, what they should think and how they should run their private lives. This, my brethren and sistren, rarely if ever leads to good things; primarily, I suspect, because it leads to a stunting of the organic evolutionary processes that allow society to adapt successfully to change in the environment.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8289
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by wm » 14 Apr 2023 20:20

Well, I don't know what Mr. Dmowski meant by that, and I don't think he ever explained it.

But judging by what some Polish Catholic priests preached, and lots of them were followers of Dmowski, it was all about the Orthodox Jews' piety, family life, fathers explaining the religion to their sons during the Sabbath dinner - when their sheep mostly guzzled vodka and fought among themselves with deadly results.
Seneca once wrote that all the new technical inventions were of no interest since they could not help to strengthen or calm the soul. And the fact is the Jewish religion did that quite nicely. It served their adherents well.
With a calm soul and certainty given by religion, you could achieve a lot.

Of course, it wasn't all sunshine and roses; lots of young Jews hated the "medieval" way of life.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2516
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by gebhk » 15 Apr 2023 08:38

Seneca once wrote that all the new technical inventions were of no interest since they could not help to strengthen or calm the soul.
Which just proves that 'things were better when I were a lad' (along with complaining about 'the youth of today ') are probably as old as humanity :D. And yes, change is disturbing for the soul but infortunately necessary if a society is to survive. Given that the Roman Empire grew to the size it did and survived as long as it did, primarily due to its embracing of a host of technical inventions, it is particularly ironic that a ROMAN philosopher would decry the very things that allowed him the luxury of spending his life philosophysing instead of just struggling to survive :P
And the fact is the Jewish religion did that quite nicely. It served their adherents well.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. The point is that all cultures (and religion is one facet of culture) serve their adherents well, because otherwise they would not develop. However, for completeness, one should add that 'it served their adherents well until it didn't'. At which point, the greater the variability within that culture, the greater the likelihood that some part of it will survive to evolve into something else that will serve new generations.
Orthodox Jews' piety, family life, fathers explaining the religion to their sons during the Sabbath dinner - when their sheep mostly guzzled vodka and fought among themselves with deadly results.
The questions are, of course, how much of this was a 'picture postcard' fantasy and how much a reality (as you point out) and, secondly, how much was this a class rather than a cultural distinction (ie comparing relatively well-off Jews with indigent peasants)? I suspect that if you compared what you would imagine a nice middle-class Polish family would get up to compared with a piss-poor peasant flock, you would probably come to much the same conclusions. Violence, alcohol misuse and a host of other similar problems are far more endemic in the lower SES groups than higher ones. That is as true today as it has always been.
Last edited by gebhk on 15 Apr 2023 15:53, edited 1 time in total.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8975
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by michael mills » 15 Apr 2023 11:58

A former female teacher at a Jewish ultra-Orthodox school in Melbourne has recently been convicted of sexually abusing three of her students. It would appear that traditional Jewish piety did not always protect the more vulnerable members of the community governed by it from the abusers in its midst.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8289
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by wm » 15 Apr 2023 12:33

Criminals and psychopaths happen everywhere. But for some reasons, we usually hear about the "religious" ones.

The Talmud has lots of strong taboos against such behavior:
Issurei Biah - Chapter Twenty Two
Similarly, a Jewish child should not be entrusted to a gentile with the intent that he teach him to read or teach him a craft, for all gentiles are suspect to engage in homosexual relations. Similarly, we do not house an animal in an inn belonging to gentiles, not even a male in an inn with males and a female in an inn with females.

We do not entrust an animal, beast, or fowl to a gentile shepherd, not even a male animal to a male shepherd and a female animal to a female shepherd, because they are all suspect to sodomize animals.

Why do we not entrust a female animal to a female gentile? For [all gentiles] are assumed to be promiscuous and when a gentile man will come to sleep with this gentile woman, it is possible that he will not find her and instead, sodomize the animal. Or even if he does find her, he may sodomize the animal.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2516
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by gebhk » 15 Apr 2023 16:04

But for some reasons, we usually hear about the "religious" ones.
Probably because everyone enjoys seeing paragons of virtue and their moral certainties being shown to be just as frail as the rest of us. Who doesn't enjoy a hipocrite being exposed (no pun intended)? I expect a campaigning pacifist beating someone up in the pub would elicit a similar level of interest. Eco-warriors driving gas-guzzlers are also a good standby for much the same reasons - though obviously there is much less mileage in this because, let's face it, sex and violence fascinate us more than the fate of the planet....
Last edited by gebhk on 16 Apr 2023 13:53, edited 1 time in total.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8975
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by michael mills » 15 Apr 2023 21:15

Judaism was not the only religion that prohibited homosexuality and bestiality.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8289
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: European Jewish Communites Shoah Then Arab Jewish Communites Judenfrei NOW

Post by wm » 15 Apr 2023 23:41

Certainly, but the Talmud creates a second layer of defense that tries to prevent even the possibility of an unauthorized situation from happening.
In the case above, it forbids all gentiles from approaching Jewish animals.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”