Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly normal"?

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by LineDoggie » 25 Mar 2023 00:12

wm wrote:
24 Mar 2023 23:59
I disagree that "anti-Semitism was almost Mainstream in Europe and the USA." Not because it was false but because it's a judgment usually made for political reasons, i.e., to support Israeli chauvinism.
poles were quite happy to give Jews a shoeing before the Wehrmacht arrived in 39 and I'm not an Israeli so you failed miserably.

France could not wait to strip Jews of French citizenship
FDR turned away the jews of the S/S St. Louis


wm wrote:
24 Mar 2023 23:59
Even more, it usually is supported by fake history, like the story that Roosevelt sent that ship to Auschwitz.
it would be impossible to send a Steam ship over land to Auschwitz, Nice try.

However 254 of the passengers did wind up murdered in the Holocaust in Nazi run death camps inside Poland
wm wrote:
24 Mar 2023 23:59
The Zionist stance made it clear: Palestine or nothing. Now or never.
[/quote]Jews and Zionists Oh MY!
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by wm » 25 Mar 2023 00:27

The truth is the colonial conquest of Palestine was much more important than helping the oppressed Jews. Do you know who said during the Holocaust that:
One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland

Let's try this:
The issue of Palestine complicated Jewish organizational structure in Britain and caused an acrimonious dispute. The Zionists, on the one hand, were united in condemning the diversion of vital financial resources to the investigation of any other fruitless overseas settlement schemes.
Despite domestic problems in Palestine, they believed that the Diaspora should actively promote Palestine as being the prime destination for immigrants and thus strengthen the Jewish population in Palestine, and give credence to the need for a Jewish State.
...
In reality, during the 1930s, and in spite of the constraints, nearly every Jew who reached Northern Rhodesia was awarded admittance. Even after the outbreak of the war, the country showed outstanding sympathy for the downcast refugees: this was attested to by the arrival and absorption of thousands of Polish gentile refugees , civilians and soldiers, following the collapse of Poland.
Frank Shapiro, Haven in Africa

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by Obi44 » 25 Mar 2023 01:53

wm wrote:
24 Mar 2023 23:59
I disagree that "anti-Semitism was almost Mainstream in Europe and the USA." Not because it was false but because it's a judgment usually made for political reasons, i.e., to support Israeli chauvinism.

It equates with Hitler, an illiterate Polish peasant who used black Jews (or chimney sweepers) as a bogeyman to discipline his children, a Hungarian nationalist offended by the dominance of Jews in the Hungarian economy, an East European enraged by enthusiastic Jewish collaboration in the Soviet conquest of his country, and a Parisian who in good faith bought a former Jewish apartment and was forced to return it for free in 1945.

Such a judgment invariably hides the motives. Although the motives could be good or bad, they still existed; it wasn't like they acted like that because they all were mentally ill (a theory actually advanced in Israel that anti-semites are all mentally ill).

Even more, it usually is supported by fake history, like the story that Roosevelt sent that ship to Auschwitz.

I was actually mighty surprised when Israel Hayom wrote recently about some post-Ottoman-Empire conflict in Greece - that it was fueled by Jewish support for the Empire and later for the Young Turks in a country that Türkiye occupied for so long.

There was a single reason that (some) German/Austrian Jews weren't able to find a safe haven in 1938, and Edwin Black explains it best in his "The Transfer Agreement."
Focusing on Palestine as the only legitimate destination for large-scale emigration, the Zionist Organization rejected opportunities to resettle German Jews in havens or homes other than Eretz Yisrael.

For example, in mid-July, Australia announced a willingness to accept thousands of German Jewish families for settlement in the northern region around Darwin.
Longtime Jewish colonization organizations had successfully settled a thousand Jewish families in the Crimea and another thousand in the Ukraine during the first half of 1933 and a proposal for an actual Jewish homeland in Manchuria had come from Japan.

For years, thousands of Russian Jews and British Jews had been living in Shanghai and other Asian cities. Most had arrived after the Russian Revolution; others represented British commercial interests. Japanese leaders controlling Manchuria well remembered the help of Jewish financier Jacob Schiff in defeating the Russians during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.
SO they responded favorably to ideas advanced by Shanghai Zionists to convert part of Manchuria into a Jewish homeland.

But the Australian, Russian, and Manchurian settlement opportunities were rejected by the Zionist Organization. Resettlement meant further dispersion and little more than another scenario for persecution, as Jews would again become guests of a host nation. A return to their own land in Palestine constituted the only end to centuries of catastrophic nomadism.

The Zionist stance made it clear: Palestine or nothing. Now or never.
If the statement isn't false why the supposed need to type all this? It's not exactly relevant to the greater thread subject.
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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by Obi44 » 25 Mar 2023 01:57

LineDoggie wrote:
25 Mar 2023 00:12
wm wrote:
24 Mar 2023 23:59
I disagree that "anti-Semitism was almost Mainstream in Europe and the USA." Not because it was false but because it's a judgment usually made for political reasons, i.e., to support Israeli chauvinism.
poles were quite happy to give Jews a shoeing before the Wehrmacht arrived in 39 and I'm not an Israeli so you failed miserably.

France could not wait to strip Jews of French citizenship
FDR turned away the jews of the S/S St. Louis


wm wrote:
24 Mar 2023 23:59
Even more, it usually is supported by fake history, like the story that Roosevelt sent that ship to Auschwitz.
it would be impossible to send a Steam ship over land to Auschwitz, Nice try.

However 254 of the passengers did wind up murdered in the Holocaust in Nazi run death camps inside Poland
wm wrote:
24 Mar 2023 23:59
The Zionist stance made it clear: Palestine or nothing. Now or never.
Jews and Zionists Oh MY!
[/quote]

Polish people were indeed quite anti-Semitic. One remarkable effect of the German occupation of their nation was that it strengthened the relationship between Polish gentiles and Jews, who felt as if they were "all in this together," united against a common German enemy. This lasted until at least the end of the war, when repatriated Jews were denied their property that had been seized by gentiles.
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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by wm » 25 Mar 2023 22:51

Obi44 wrote:
25 Mar 2023 01:53
If the statement isn't false why the supposed need to type all this? It's not exactly relevant to the greater thread subject.
The statement isn't false and isn't true. It's simply unhelpful to understand history. Especially since it's frequently based on biased or outright false history.
Another one is "Polish people were indeed quite anti-Semitic." What does it even mean? That the Polish people wanted to burn Jews in ovens or kill them?
Are you aware that the small Jewish minority owned 40 percent of the industry and more than 50 percent of trade? And that led to political conflicts?
Such statements reduce complex history to judgment and damnation.

But the other two of your statements are fully untrue. That the relationship was strengthened (it was the other way, and it is poorly understood complex history) and that Jews were denied their property.
Anybody could recover property in communist Poland if he was willing (and liked totalitarian communism) to wait out the first lawless years when war with the Soviets was going on.
And for Jews who lost everything, the communists reserved a large land in the so-called recovered territories. You seem aren't aware that there were two Jews among the three top communist rulers, and Jews were overrepresented in all organs of state power.

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by Obi44 » 26 Mar 2023 02:07

wm wrote:
25 Mar 2023 22:51
Obi44 wrote:
25 Mar 2023 01:53
If the statement isn't false why the supposed need to type all this? It's not exactly relevant to the greater thread subject.
The statement isn't false and isn't true. It's simply unhelpful to understand history. Especially since it's frequently based on biased or outright false history.
Another one is "Polish people were indeed quite anti-Semitic." What does it even mean? That the Polish people wanted to burn Jews in ovens or kill them?
Are you aware that the small Jewish minority owned 40 percent of the industry and more than 50 percent of trade? And that led to political conflicts?
Such statements reduce complex history to judgment and damnation.

But the other two of your statements are fully untrue. That the relationship was strengthened (it was the other way, and it is poorly understood complex history) and that Jews were denied their property.
Anybody could recover property in communist Poland if he was willing (and liked totalitarian communism) to wait out the first lawless years when war with the Soviets was going on.
And for Jews who lost everything, the communists reserved a large land in the so-called recovered territories. You seem aren't aware that there were two Jews among the three top communist rulers, and Jews were overrepresented in all organs of state power.
Your statement about Jewish presence in industry and trade "leading to political conflicts" only adds to my point about anti-Semitism in pre-war Poland. The country had the largest amount of Jews in Europe, but 90% or so were not assimilated into the general Polish society - mostly Catholics. Tensions had been growing since the early 1930s, where at this time both the Polish right and left wing (though primarily the right wing) adopted anti-Jewish stances. After Pilsudski's death in 1935, and the Endecja began to rise in influence, Jews found themselves harassed, segregated and excluded. From 1935-1937, 79 Jews were murdered and 500 injured in anti-Semitic violence in the Polish Republic.

As for the war strengthening relations between Polish Jews and gentiles, I admit that this largely depended on personal experience.

And yes, there were many Jews in the post-war socialist government, but that means nothing when I bring up the widespread distaste and discrimination exhibited in Polish society for them and their fellow Jews. You're not about to deny events like the Kielce Pogrom, are you? The situation for the Jews had NOT improved, and would not for several years. The 1945 and 1946 laws of restitution were passed with the intention of making it harder for Jews to reclaim their property, at least according to Dariusz Stola's "The Polish Debate on the Holocaust and the Restitution of Property."
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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by wm » 26 Mar 2023 14:23

What is your source that 79 Jews were murdered? Do we have their names?
Were the number of deaths something normal at that time? Did in political clashes more people die or less at that time?
This is what I was talking about. About things that are not true and not false.

And anyway, was Jewish life so precious that any political dispute with Jews is evil? Were Polish political opponents of Jews future organizers of the Holocaust? Did they want to burn Jews in ovens?

The Jews were one of the main economic, political, cultural (even military) in the Second Polish Republic. The demand they were shielded from politics (in one of the poorest countries in Europe, with 30 percent unemployment, massive crime, famines, and anti-government revolts) is absurd.

So what 90 percent wasn't assimilated? Nobody forbade them to speak Polish, eat kielbasa, and sing the national anthem every other day. But most of them didn't speak Polish or spoke badly (they spoke mangled German and frequently Russian as the second language).

The truth is the majority of the Jews were Orthodox or ultra-orthodox, and the rest wasn't especially better.
That assimilation was considered treason, such people were proclaimed dead, and funeral rites were performed for them.
That a Jewish trader or a businessman who went native would be destroyed by the existing Jewish monopoles and would lose privileges enjoyed thanks to (partial) Jewish self-government (including Jewish law.)

I've never heard that "the 1945 and 1946 laws of restitution" were anti-Jewish; they were merely anti-capitalist in nature, considering that a year later, most of the Polish economy would be brutally nationalized.
By a guy named Hilary Minc, Stalin's darling, protected by another Stalin's darling, Jakub Berman - the head of security forces.
And both were Jews.

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by Obi44 » 26 Mar 2023 16:56

wm wrote:
26 Mar 2023 14:23
What is your source that 79 Jews were murdered? Do we have their names?
Were the number of deaths something normal at that time? Did in political clashes more people die or less at that time?
This is what I was talking about. About things that are not true and not false.

And anyway, was Jewish life so precious that any political dispute with Jews is evil? Were Polish political opponents of Jews future organizers of the Holocaust? Did they want to burn Jews in ovens?

The Jews were one of the main economic, political, cultural (even military) in the Second Polish Republic. The demand they were shielded from politics (in one of the poorest countries in Europe, with 30 percent unemployment, massive crime, famines, and anti-government revolts) is absurd.

So what 90 percent wasn't assimilated? Nobody forbade them to speak Polish, eat kielbasa, and sing the national anthem every other day. But most of them didn't speak Polish or spoke badly (they spoke mangled German and frequently Russian as the second language).

The truth is the majority of the Jews were Orthodox or ultra-orthodox, and the rest wasn't especially better.
That assimilation was considered treason, such people were proclaimed dead, and funeral rites were performed for them.
That a Jewish trader or a businessman who went native would be destroyed by the existing Jewish monopoles and would lose privileges enjoyed thanks to (partial) Jewish self-government (including Jewish law.)

I've never heard that "the 1945 and 1946 laws of restitution" were anti-Jewish; they were merely anti-capitalist in nature, considering that a year later, most of the Polish economy would be brutally nationalized.
By a guy named Hilary Minc, Stalin's darling, protected by another Stalin's darling, Jakub Berman - the head of security forces.
And both were Jews.
So your excuse for violence against Jews in Poland is to deny it and when that fails, you instead blame it on those "ultra-Orthodox Jews" who disenfranchised their own people. The Jews were a group targeted by political violence, because of their ethnicity - that's the whole point. Endecja had been growing in popularity immediately before the war and violence and policies against Jews increased as a result. The 79 dead Jews come from "The Routledge Atlas of the Holocaust," page 21, by Martin Gilbert. Foreign Minister of Poland Jozef Beck, in 1937, expressed his desire to remove up to 100,000 Jews from the country per year, thus solving the "Jewish Question" in a mere five years. This also led to collusion between the Polish government with Zionists, just as the Nazis halfheartedly did once (that's not to compare Poles to Nazis, don't get the wrong impression).

I must say. Why is it the fault of the Jew who wishes to maintain his traditions and culture when he is beaten on the street? Since when did assimilation become mandatory? Pilsudski didn't seem to think it should be.

On your point about property, I'm not sure why the word of Stalinists who would obviously wish to push their policies as far as possible matters more than the words of historians. Jews don't always look after each other. They infight like every other group.

Do you want me to list the vast amount of challenges faced by Jews when reclaiming their property (which often didn't even result in actual ownership), or can we get this thread back on track?
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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by gebhk » 26 Mar 2023 17:29

Did in political clashes more people die or less at that time?
For what it's worth, (according to government figures) 818 people were killed in clashes with police in Poland 1932-1937. Not sure what the relevance of this is to the topic, albeit it does point to the fairly obvious fact that in the 1930s life in most of Europe was a lot more violent than it is today. And I rather doubt that it has anything to do with human nature improving or evolving, but with the simple fact that we are becoming increasingly affluent and secure. Affluence and security are potent civilising factors, but if the affluence and security is threatened (even if only in our imagination), the most civilised people become savages in a heartbeat.

It is not surprising, therefore, that anti-Jewishness along with every other anti-xxxx (insert racial or cultural stereotype, religion, sexual orientation, etc as appropriate) becomes more prevalent and (big surprise!) tends to be most prevalent in the most vulnerable parts of society. And yes, anti-Jewishness was common throughout the world in 1930s. I doubt that it was any more prevalent or virulent in Poland than it was in, say, the UK; especially if you control for the relative poverty levels in both countries.

I would have thought that the Milgram and the Robbers Cave experiments explain the rest. You can't expect to form distinct and hermetic groupings of people without there being conflict when there is poverty and (perceived and/or real) competition over inadequate resources. You can't expect the majority of people to act differently if authority tells them that abhorrent behaviour is their duty. I am not in the least surprised, therefore, that the vast majority of the organisers of the Holocaust were perfectly sane individuals

As WM points out, sweeping generalisations are not helpful.

Out of curiosity, where does the figure of 90% Polish Jews being unassimilated come from? I am just curious how anyone would know from census data, for example?

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by Obi44 » 26 Mar 2023 17:48

gebhk wrote:
26 Mar 2023 17:29
Did in political clashes more people die or less at that time?
For what it's worth, (according to government figures) 818 people were killed in clashes with police in Poland 1932-1937. Not sure what the relevance of this is to the topic, albeit it does point to the fairly obvious fact that in the 1930s life in most of Europe was a lot more violent than it is today. And I rather doubt that it has anything to do with human nature improving or evolving, but with the simple fact that we are becoming increasingly affluent and secure. Affluence and security are potent civilising factors, but if the affluence and security is threatened (even if only in our imagination), the most civilised people become savages in a heartbeat.

It is not surprising, therefore, that anti-Jewishness along with every other anti-xxxx (insert racial or cultural stereotype, religion, sexual orientation, etc as appropriate) becomes more prevalent and (big surprise!) tends to be most prevalent in the most vulnerable parts of society. And yes, anti-Jewishness was common throughout the world in 1930s. I doubt that it was any more prevalent or virulent in Poland than it was in, say, the UK; especially if you control for the relative poverty levels in both countries.

I would have thought that the Milgram and the Robbers Cave experiments explain the rest. You can't expect to form distinct and hermetic groupings of people without there being conflict when there is poverty and (perceived and/or real) competition over inadequate resources. You can't expect the majority of people to act differently if authority tells them that abhorrent behaviour is their duty. I am not in the least surprised, therefore, that the vast majority of the organisers of the Holocaust were perfectly sane individuals

As WM points out, sweeping generalisations are not helpful.

Out of curiosity, where does the figure of 90% Polish Jews being unassimilated come from? I am just curious how anyone would know from census data, for example?
I have to disagree with your assertion that Poland was overall not more or less anti-Semitic than the UK, largely because it was in Poland where the Great Depression hit harder and thus anti-Semitic groups could latch onto and blame Jews for their problems (example being the NSDAP and the Endecja); meanwhile, in the UK, it does not seem to have deteriorated to such lows. Even Mosley only outwardly described his distaste for Jews in 1935, and his party never grew to such heights as the NSDAP or Endecja. Of course, many British were likely anti-Semitic, I'm not disputing that fact. I simply disagree that it was a prominent feature in politics and I don't believe it reached the same heights as in Poland.

I got the 90% figure from Nechama Tec's "When Light Pierced the Darkness: Christian Rescue of Jews in Nazi-Occupied Poland," page 12.
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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by gebhk » 26 Mar 2023 18:37

I have to disagree with your assertion that Poland was overall not more or less anti-Semitic than the UK, largely because it was in Poland where the Great Depression hit harder and thus anti-Semitic groups could latch onto and blame Jews for their problems (example being the NSDAP and the Endecja);
As we are saying much the same thing, I am not sure how you can disagree? :wink: I would suggest that we perhaps only differ in our perceptions of the mechanics - anti-Jewish political groups were not the cause of Anti-Jewish hatred, they exploited a very real and natural reaction of hermetic groups in competition over inadequate resources (after all Endecja can hardly be blamed for the truly deadly, indeed horrific treatment of the Jews and Poles by Ukrainian Nationalists).

I suspect you rather underestimate anti-Jewish sentiment in the UK which followed a fairly similar pattern both before, during and after the war as in Poland and, rather disturbingly, has been steadily on the rise since the beginning of this century and this despite the hugely greater assimilation of the Jewish population into British society both now and then. Moseley was neither the only nor the most virulent exponent of anti-Jewish sentiment in British politics of the 30s and 40s. I doubt that the 'perish Judah' of the Right Club or its emblem were meant as an expressions of goodwill to the Jewish population of Great Britain!

I totally agree with you that it is not the fault of the Jew who wishes to maintain his traditions and culture when he is beaten on the street.. However, if you display your allegiance to one group, then you have to accept that it is normal human behaviour for members of other groups which feel they are in competition with your group, to behave aggressively towards you. That is not an 'excuse', it is a universal part of human behaviour and the fact that it is pretty much universal, suggests it has evolutionary advantages (this of course is a nod to the subject of this topic!).

Does Nechama Tec identify where he got the 90% figure from or is that his guess?

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by Obi44 » 26 Mar 2023 19:23

gebhk wrote:
26 Mar 2023 18:37
I have to disagree with your assertion that Poland was overall not more or less anti-Semitic than the UK, largely because it was in Poland where the Great Depression hit harder and thus anti-Semitic groups could latch onto and blame Jews for their problems (example being the NSDAP and the Endecja);
As we are saying much the same thing, I am not sure how you can disagree? :wink: I would suggest that we perhaps only differ in our perceptions of the mechanics - anti-Jewish political groups were not the cause of Anti-Jewish hatred, they exploited a very real and natural reaction of hermetic groups in competition over inadequate resources (after all Endecja can hardly be blamed for the truly deadly, indeed horrific treatment of the Jews and Poles by Ukrainian Nationalists).

I suspect you rather underestimate anti-Jewish sentiment in the UK which followed a fairly similar pattern both before, during and after the war as in Poland and, rather disturbingly, has been steadily on the rise since the beginning of this century and this despite the hugely greater assimilation of the Jewish population into British society both now and then. Moseley was neither the only nor the most virulent exponent of anti-Jewish sentiment in British politics of the 30s and 40s. I doubt that the 'perish Judah' of the Right Club or its emblem were meant as an expressions of goodwill to the Jewish population of Great Britain!

I totally agree with you that it is not the fault of the Jew who wishes to maintain his traditions and culture when he is beaten on the street.. However, if you display your allegiance to one group, then you have to accept that it is normal human behaviour for members of other groups which feel they are in competition with your group, to behave aggressively towards you. That is not an 'excuse', it is a universal part of human behaviour and the fact that it is pretty much universal, suggests it has evolutionary advantages (this of course is a nod to the subject of this topic!).

Does Nechama Tec identify where he got the 90% figure from or is that his guess?
Gebhk, I don't think these outwardly anti-Semitic parties and groups were incredibly popular in the UK - as in, they didn't get a considerable share of support. Maybe you can prove me wrong, but that's just what I've observed.

As for Tec, he states:

"It has been estimated that more than 80% of Polish Jews were easily recognizable, while less than 10% could be considered assimilated [It seems my statistic was off by about 10%, my apologies for my misremembering]."

He sources Celia Heller's "On the Edge of Destruction," page 69. He doesn't give further information on the source. However, he does reference a 1931 census that demonstrated that 79% of all Jews declared Yiddish to be their primary language, while only 12% mentioned Polish. The rest chose Hebrew. Further info on the census can be found in Antony Polonsky's "Politics in Independent Poland, 1921-1939," page 40.

Thanks for discussing this with civility. I'm glad we can at least agree on some things.
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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by gebhk » 26 Mar 2023 21:18

No reason why this can't be discussed with civility even if we disagree about everything :thumbsup:

Re stats. It reminds me of how the advert: 9/10 cats prefer Whiskas became 9/10 owners of cats who expressed an opinion said their cats preferred Whiskas. If the data is derived solely from the 1931 census then it contains a ruddy great unknowable error because that census did not record ethnicity. The census could only demonstrate what languages those of the Jewish Faith (referred to as the 'faith of Moses' in Polish) spoke. It could not demonstrate "that 79% of all Jews declared Yiddish to be their primary language, while only 12% mentioned Polish. The rest chose Hebrew". If you were a Jew who happened to be a Christian or atheist, you were not part of the 'all Jews' above. And I would suggest the over-representation of Jews in the middle classes would have also made them overrepresented among the atheists, but that's by the by.

Re popularity of BUF and the like - 2 things. One - parties are popular (or not) for a variety of reasons. There seems little to suggest that the popularity of the Nazis in Germany had much to do with their anti-Jewish stance. The BUF was very popular among the ladies because it proposed outlawing the common practice of sacking women from their jobs when they married. It's subsequent unpopularity, I would suggest, had little to do with its anti-Jewish stance and much to do with beating up hecklers at the 1934 party congress, the Cable Street Battle and, perhaps most importantly, in an increasingly anti-German Britain, its association with Germany - both perceived and real. Some have also suggested that parading around in silly uniforms and giving silly salutes did nothing to impress the British voter who tends to be allergic to this sort of poposity. Long and short being that it was poor PR choices followed by a bunch of copper-bottomed sea-going PR disasters that did for the BUF rather than its policies.

Two - just because something is not present in politics and the media, does not mean it does not exist at the grassroots level. I was unable to find any data on violence againt Jews in the UK 1935-37, so I compared your Polish data with 3 recent peak years (2014-2016) in the UK (data collected by CPT). Per capita the rate was 0.0002 in Poland v 0.00002 in the UK, if we take death and GBH only in the British data into account. If we control for such factors as societal norms for violence, relative wealth, level of integration and add woundings resulting from ABH to the British dataset, the results would not be wildly different between the two countries I suspect. And this is the 21st century, for goodness sake!

However the Britons of Jewish descent are significantly more integrated into British Society - simply put they don't stand out. The competition with the white poor communities in Britain today are, for example, Pakistani. Anyone got figures on that one for comparison? Serious question: I couldn't find them; ie there are easily accessible compound figures on all hate crime against all Asians from the Indian subcontinent but not dissected out into serious physical assaults, verbal abuse etc the way the CPT data is. The best I could get was that an individual with Indian ethnicity had a 0.2% chance of being the target of a hate crime per annum and about 8 times more likely to be the target of a hate crime than a white Briton.

And this is where we come to an important point as far as this discussion is concerned. The targets of the majority of hate crimes in the UK are white males. This, of course, is the product of the white population being the largest. Nevertheless, racist assaults by Asian or Black people on White people occur, just as the other way around and the point this demonstrates, sadly perhaps, is that this type of violence is a normal part of human behaviour. All the Nazis had to do, was to make it intellectually acceptable.

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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by wm » 08 Apr 2023 22:24

Obi44 wrote:
26 Mar 2023 16:56
Do you want me to list the vast amount of challenges faced by Jews when reclaiming their property (which often didn't even result in actual ownership), or can we get this thread back on track?

Are you aware that there were 2 million homeless people in Poland in 1945?
That countless people returned to their homes just to find them looted, destroyed, or occupied by someone else?
Actually, if you left your home empty for a period of time, you basically could have kissed it goodbye.
Entire territories were lawless, or war was going on with the communists there - and people who lived there couldn't do anything about it except get killed.

And you are complaining that some Jews found life in such a (totalitarian) country uncomfortable? Well, aren't that an exercise in arrogance?
In this Poland?
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Re: Is it true that many of the captured organizers of the holocaust were diagnosed by psychiatrists as "perfectly norma

Post by wm » 08 Apr 2023 23:00

Obi44 wrote:
26 Mar 2023 16:56
Foreign Minister of Poland Jozef Beck, in 1937, expressed his desire to remove up to 100,000 Jews from the country per year, thus solving the "Jewish Question" in a mere five years.
Do we have a source for that?

Obi44 wrote:
26 Mar 2023 16:56
This also led to collusion between the Polish government with Zionists, just as the Nazis halfheartedly did once (that's not to compare Poles to Nazis, don't get the wrong impression).
Considering it wasn't "collusion" with the Zionists but with the Revisionists. So we have a taste of the "quality" of the source already.


Obi44 wrote:
26 Mar 2023 16:56
largely because it was in Poland where the Great Depression hit harder and thus anti-Semitic groups could latch onto and blame Jews for their problems (example being the NSDAP and the Endecja)
Do we have a source for that?

Considering that Endecja didn't blame the Jews unless, in some generic sense, blaming the greedy capitalists as the socialists/communists did.
An Endek would say this:
When we, the Poles, fought for our freedom (in the 19th century), making impossible sacrifices in numerous uprisings, the Polish Jews were merely getting rich. And now they own the Polish economy.
When we needed them the most, they betrayed us (i.e., during the Paris Peace Conference, they refused to support Poland).
In their majority, they are pro-German or pro-Russian and threaten our security.
The debilitating unemployment in Poland could only be mitigated by emigration. And emigration of the peasants isn't possible anymore (because of all the quotas and the Depression), so only Jewish emigration remains.

And in the end, even all that wasn't entirely true. Any "victory" over the Jews would give Endecja nothing. Their goal was Sanacja, and they intended to outflank Sanacja through their allies, the Jews, as the authoritarian Sanacja couldn't be attacked directly.
Forcing Sanacja to defend their allies, forcing Sanacja into an uncomfortable political position.

Actually, an Endecja-based government would be better for Poland than the Sanacja ones. Endecja was a mature political party and proved that in the twenties, with their coalition governments and even their Polish-Jewish pact.

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