Revisionism

[Penn44]

Im not really into Holocaust and Revisionism stuff, but I'm a researcher so I'm always interested into different points of view and sources.
First thing we must say that still at the present day the "National Socialist Army German Soldier" also called "Nazi" is a killing machine tout court for the most of the european population: he represent the nightmare of us all, he is the psico-killer able to perpetrate any bestiality so even of the worst of the war crimes and the most gruesome act in a KL.
Apart from the apparent racism of this way of thinking, that's actually the real thing that all the "National Socialist" political enemies assert to hate most of that regime, the "Pure Senseless Racism" (All Germans soldiers were massmurderers = All the jews were children eaters and so on and on and on), we can say that it's quiet hard at the present day, for a researcher of German Military History during WWII, to avoid tons of sources and witnesses based just on anti-german prejudice and mixed with orthodox anti-fascist mythology and pure fiction.

Who exactly is saying this in the European population? Drapeau Noir, don't speak in generalities, be specific.

A agitprop technique common to Wehrmacht revisionists/apologists is the technique of claiming that the world is against the "German soldier," and then cite a single episode when the claims regarding a specific, alleged German atrocity are inaccurate, and then infer that all German soldiers were innocent.

This old revisionist/apologist trick has been exposed long ago as a fraud so why come back to again and again?

Penn44

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[Bergmolch]

I don't know where you live, but around here even write a book about the German Army is quiet a crime.
In Germany there's not even a chance to start to talk about the Wehrmacht on historycal bases that you gonne find somebody ready to break your skull straight away.
In Italy if you even try to say that not all fascists were criminals, you got people coming after you with baseball bats.
I think my post was quiet fair and sure not generic, I said that all the innocent people killed are the same, as are the same all the beasts that perpetrate such gratuitos killings, were them germans, allies, fascists, communists or whoever.
You can't deny that everywhere, everyone, starting from my grandmother to my neighbour, think that the National Socialists, and so all the men that fought on their side, were the worst evil on earth....
Would you say that's not true?

I hope that with your supposing words you don't dare to mean that I'm a so called "Revisionist-Negationist" since I clearly stated that I'm not: I've just said that I do prefer to learn history by myself not trusting too much sides sources and not beliving every crap that has been written just because it has been published.
If the answer is yes, please go to interfere with some children political argue on some crap forum, I'm here to learn and study, not to get involved in this very arcaic boring stuff (I mean, tricks, contertricks, revisionists, counter revisionists, old games for brainless people).

What you would like me to say? That all Germans were criminals? Or that all Jews were rats? Or that all Slavics were Untermenschen?
Please.
I know is hard to accept, but the Germans were human beings as me and you, same our race, human race.
They weren't something different, unless you dont belive in different human and subhuman races...

[sallyg]

In my view, there are two kinds of revisionism, one, presented by "useful idiots" who repeat nonsenses, because it is what they want to believe, and do not present any reasonable backing, resorting to insults, etc.

The other kind is presented by people who raise issues that may not be what many would like to hear, may sound repugnant to others, but still they possess enough merit for them to be seriously engaged and discussed.

I think it is unfortunate that many resort to laws, rules and intolerance to equally silence the voice of both kind of revisionists as described above.
In a free society, freedom of speech should apply to all, even to those whose statement we found repugnant. I am all for censoring insults; I am not for censoring beliefs, theories and ideas. Why do we need laws or rules to silence opinions? As Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I hate to sound melodramatic, but I would care much more to seek the truth wherever it takes us, than to be politically correct.
Cheers!

"Revisionism" per se, is code for denier.

To revise our understanding of past events in light of new information is so basic a part of good historical method that it does not need the label. It is understood to be part of the process.

I stand to be corrected. Cases of self-described "revisionists" who are operating without an underlying agenda would do that. I haven't seen any.

[LWD]

...
"Revisionism" per se, is code for denier.
....

Unfortunatly this has become the case. It used to be a respected term among historians from what I understand and in some areas may still be but within the context of this board ....

[sallyg]

LWD

To revise our understanding of past events in light of new information is so basic a part of good historical method that it does not need the label. It is understood to be part of the process.

It's not just this board.

[JonS]

Good post. In fairness to the website you link to, it is stated at the top of the page that '...The following article outlines an examination of the Oradour events using German sources...'

Yeah, that's what it says. But what it says and what it is are two different things.

* About Oradour? check
* Using German sources? hard to tell, since the biblio is so thin. Of the three books in the biblio, one is French, one is from a revisionist magazine, and the other is German ... written 4 decades after the event by a participant of the activities it excuses. I suppose we could count Matthes' sworn affadavit as a second German source, despite having no way to examine it, let alone determine if it even exists. So perhaps half of the sources are German. More accurate would be to say "using sources sympathetic to the SS". Also interesting that half of the sources given are privately published.
* An examination? Uh, no. Not really.

Perhaps this book might have what you're looking for?

Ta. I have a cheap copy of Hastings' book on the way in the hope that it may cover it, but I'm not very optimistic. Both books - Hastings' and Vickers' - are more concerned with what went on further south, and to be fair the specific info I'm after is rather esoteric. Searching inside Vickers' book at Amazon tends to reinforce that.

[Penn44]

...
"Revisionism" per se, is code for denier.
....

Unfortunatly this has become the case. It used to be a respected term among historians from what I understand and in some areas may still be but within the context of this board ....

Sallyg is absolutely right. Revisionism is part and parcel of the academically trained historian's work. To call a legitimate historian a "revisionist historian" is like calling a mechanic a "repairing mechanic."

The deniers have used it a badge of honor to set them apart from legitimate historians whom they claim have purposively distorted or ignored the "real" historical record.

Penn44

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[Penn44]

I don't know where you live, but around here even write a book about the German Army is quiet a crime.

Where is "here" for you? What law in your country makes it a crime to write a book on the Germany army?

In Germany there's not even a chance to start to talk about the Wehrmacht on historycal bases that you gonne find somebody ready to break your skull straight away.

You visit Germany often? If you do, I suggest you avoid Germany in the future, or invest in a well-cushioned helmet if you if you don't want your skull broken, or keep your mouth shut about the German army. However, I don't believe your assertion to be accurate.

In Italy if you even try to say that not all fascists were criminals, you got people coming after you with baseball bats.

Are baseball bats a common, ready available item in Italy? If you said people get hit by soccer balls in Italy I might find your claim credible.

I think my post was quiet fair and sure not generic, I said that all the innocent people killed are the same, as are the same all the beasts that perpetrate such gratuitos killings, were them germans, allies, fascists, communists or whoever.

Whereas not every German soldier was a criminal, the regime for which they fought was a criminal regime, and the Germany military, that sacred institution of Germany, was quite compromised morally by its energetic support of the criminal Nazi regime, and its vital role it took in the regime's genocidal and criminal projects.

You can't deny that everywhere, everyone, starting from my grandmother to my neighbour, think that the National Socialists, and so all the men that fought on their side, were the worst evil on earth....
Would you say that's not true?

It is not true. The world does not begin and end with your granny and your neighbor.

I hope that with your supposing words you don't dare to mean that I'm a so called "Revisionist-Negationist" since I clearly stated that I'm not:

If the jackboot fits, wear it.

What you would like me to say?

Truthfully, I would prefer that you said nothing at all if you can offer us nothing more than ill-formed, unsubstantiated opinion.

I know is hard to accept, but the Germans were human beings as me and you, same our race, human race.

And there is semblance ends. Only Germany produced a Hitler and a Nazi state.

Penn44

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[Bergmolch]

Dear Friend,

You are a very nice person, but even if a try to be polite you do not even deserve a reply.
Actually you are right when you say:
"Truthfully, I would prefer that you said nothing at all if you can offer us nothing more than ill-formed, unsubstantiated opinion."
At the end of the days I'm happy to be sentenced by a very seriuos and never arrogant member who have as favorite forum The Lounge...good to know that your historical pub formation is of use on this forum!

Ok let's go, take care and do not think too much about Japanese Condoms, they were part of the Evil Axis Forces!
Thanks god in 4 years this is the first time I cross on you on this forum...tells a lot...
Bye bye

PS-Do not make too many efforts squeezing your brain to reply to me, I won't even read your next post.

[David Thompson]

Since the discussion in this thread is going nowhere, it's locked.