Did Stalin plan a second holocaust?

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David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 27 Jul 2003 17:06

Some additional detail for our readers, who may not be familiar with Prof. Oberlaender:

Oberlaender (Oberländer), Prof. Dr. jur. Dr. (agricultural economy) Theodor Erich Ernst Emil Otto (1905-?) [Army Hauptmann] – joined NSDAP 1933; Professor, University of Königsberg, 1934-37; service, German military counterintelligence (Abwehr) 1937-1945; national leader (Reichsfűhrer) of the League for the German East (Bundes Deutscher Osten -- BDO) 1939-1945; liaison officer, German-Ukrainian "Nightingale" Battalion 1941; leader, Bergmann Unit (Einheit Bergmann) {permanent secretary, Bavarian ministry of deportees, 1950-53; West German Minister of Refugees 1953-60; accused of participating in the execution of 2,400 Ukrainians at Lvov in Jun 1941 (NYT 5 Jan 1960:2:4; NYT 10 Jan 1960:21:1); impending trial announced by East German authorities 2 Apr 1960 on the basis of a case put together by the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission on the Establishment and Investigation of Crimes of the German Fascist Invaders (NYT 3 Apr 1960:42:7; NYT 6 Apr 1960:10:4); put on trial in absentia 20 Apr 1960 by the East German Supreme Court for actively encouraging German aggression in eastern Europe through the Association of Germans in the East, for the murders of Jews, communist functionaries, Russian POWs and Russian civilians at Lemberg and eastern Galicia by the Nightingale Battalion in Jul 1941 and mass shootings of Russian prisoners at Pjatigorsk (NYT 21 Apr 1960:2:5; NYT 28 Apr 1960:5:6); convicted and sentenced in absentia to life imprisonment 28 Apr 1960 (NYT 30 Apr 1960:3:6); resigned as West German Minister of Refugees May 1960 (NYT 27 Sept 1960:7:2); preliminary criminal proceedings in West Germany result in West German court finding of "no evidence" against Oberlaender 26 Sept 1960 (NYT 27 Sept 1960:7:2); later declared rehabilitated and East German sentence annulled 24 Nov 1993 (JuNSV Verfahren Lfd.Nr.1087; Ob. Gericht der DDR 600429; LG/BG Berlin 931124; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 661; "Hitler's Legacy" Biographical index); at least one crime of which Oberlaender was convicted apparently was committed by SS-Untersturmführer Walter Kutschmann, according to Simon Wiesenthal, who said he consider Oberlaender "fully rehabilitated" on the charge of conducting a mass execution of civilians at Lvov 4 Jul 1941; Kutschmann had fled to Argentina and was living in Buenos Aires in 1975 under the name Pedro or Peter Ricardo Olmos (NYT 28 Jun 1975:3:1); investigation reopened Mar 1996 (NYT 4 May 1996:5:6); subsequent disposition unknown.}

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 27 Jul 2003 18:22

Does this "leftist" historian has anything to show - you know mr. millis of documented support for that theory of his? If not -is there any specifc reason you broughtt some peace of literature here?

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Post by michael mills » 28 Jul 2003 05:24

Oleg wrote:
Does this "leftist" historian has anything to show - you know mr. millis of documented support for that theory of his? If not -is there any specifc reason you broughtt some peace of literature here?
I quoted the passage from the book by Goetz Aly because I thought it made a refreshing change from the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Soviet positions normally taken in any discussion of the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33 (as here by Galicia and Oleg respectively).

Aly sees the famine as resulting not from some specific Communist ideology, or irrational Stalinist tyranny, or anti-Ukrainian racism, but rather from rational policies of modernising Soviet agriculture. You will agree that that is a refreshingly different approach.

The sources referred to by Aly in this piece are:

1. An article by Oberlaender, "Die agrarische Ueberbevoelkerung Ostmittleeuropas", in the book by Hermann Aubin, Otto Brunner, Wolfgang Kohte, Johannes Papritz (eds), Deutsche Ostforschung, Ergebnisse und Aufgaben seit dem Ersten Weltkrieg, Leipzig 1943.

2. The demographer Lev J. Lubny-Gerzik, who concluded that in the four regions studied by him between 14 and 18 million people were surplus to need: quoted in Susanne Heim, Ulrike Schaz, Berechnung und Beschwoerung. Ueberbevoelkerung - Kritik einer Debatte, Berlin/Goettingen 1996.

3. L. E. Minc, Agrarnoe perenaselenie i rynok truda v SSSR ("Agrarian overpopulation and the labour market in the USSR'), Moscow/Leningrad 1929; as quoted in : Michael Hoffmann, Die agrarische Ueberbevoelkerung Russlands, Berlin-Wilmersdorf, 1932.

4. A. Jugow, Die Volkswirtschaft der Sowjetunion und ihre Probleme, Dresden 1929. Jugow points out that 'the intention of the resettlement authorities is to relocate 5 million people in the space of 10 years'. But he claims that there was insufficient money available to fund the project. Jugow's own estimate was that 25-30 million people needed to be resettled, but expressed doubts about the practical feasibility of this. In the final analysis 'the only radical and realistic method' in the fight against continuing population growth was a 'general industrialisation and intensification of economic activity'. This alone, however, would hardly suffice - even at 'American rates of growth' - to 'absorb the overpopulation'.

5. Raja Silberkweit, "Analyse und Kritik der Frage der russischen Agrarueberbevoelkerung. Ein Beitrag zu den Problemen der russischen Agrarpolitik' (Diss.), Leipzig 1934.

6. Moshe Levin, Russian Peasants and Soviet Power. A Study of Collectivisation, London 1968.

7. Robert Conquest, Ernte des Todes, Stalins Holocaust in der Ukraine 1929-1933, Munich 1988.

8. Kubijowitsch, 'Bevoelkerungsverteilung', in: Siedlungsgeschichte, Bevoelkerungsverteilung und Bevoelkerungsbewegung der Ukraine (from Geographie der Ukraine und benachbarten Gebiete, Vol. I, edited by Dr W. Kubijowitsch), Berlin 1943. This Ukrainian source estimated that 2-4 million people in the Ukraine had fallen victim to famine and deportation in the wake of the drive to eliminate the kulak class, ie a lower figure than Conquest's 5 million starvation victims out of a Ukrainain peasant population of 20-25 millions.

9. Richard Korherr, 'Dynamik der Zahl und der natuerlichen Bevoelkerungsbewegung in der UdSSR in den Jahren 1924-1941', Federal Archive/BDC, personal file of Richard Korherr. Korherr estimated that 11.5 million people died as a result of resettlement and famine in the Soviet Union in 1933.

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Post by michael mills » 28 Jul 2003 05:27

Oleg,

By the way, thanks for drawing our attention to the book "The Road to Terror".

I see that the library of the Australian National University has a copy. I intend to get it out and read it; it looks interesting.

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Galicia
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Post by Galicia » 28 Jul 2003 06:09

Yes, it's a good book although I disagree with some of it's philosophies.

However, while you're there, try "Harvest of Sorrow," by Robert Conquest, of whom you have mentioned above! :lol:

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Post by michael mills » 28 Jul 2003 09:09

Galicia wrote:
However, while you're there, try "Harvest of Sorrow," by Robert Conquest, of whom you have mentioned above!
I have already read that book, and also Conquest's book on the great Terror.

Although I find Conquest's books very useful, the problem with them is that they were written in the context of the Cold War, and they rely heavily on accounts by people who escaped from the Soviet Union, with little documentary evidence (understandably, since little was available). For that reason, I feel that they verge on propaganda, and probably exaggerate the crimes of the Soviet Government to some degree.

I think that the truth about the crimes of the Soviet Government will only be established through a process of thoroughly checking the work of historians such as Conquest against archival sources as they become available. I would suspect myself that that truth probably lies somewhere between the claims of the Cold War historians and those of the more apologetic historians of more recent times.

My own position is that neither the crimes of the Soviet Union nor those of Nazi Germany should be exaggerated, which I think has happened in both cases. In my view, the revisionist historiography of the Stalin period that has emerged in recent years is a healthy sign, although, like any history, it should be read critically.

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Galicia
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Post by Galicia » 28 Jul 2003 19:23

Mr. Mills,

I agree with you completely. The problem with attempting to prove that anything happened however is difficult unless you:

1. Can read Russian
2. Have access to some still closed documents
3. Or have a knowledge of where/how to aquire these Soviet documents

I am, frankly, in no position, to comment on either non Ukrainian-Polish Soviet War Crimes, so I cannot tell you whether I think that there were more or less people killed as a direct result of the Politburo, Army High Command, etc.

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Koenig u. Kaisertreu
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Post by Koenig u. Kaisertreu » 06 Sep 2004 18:02

To Any & All on Stalin, Jews & "holocausts"
Based on what I've read, it seems probable that Stalin was largely to blame personally for the deaths of millions in the Ukraine through his forced collectivisation policies...Regarding his attitude toward this, he is reported to have responded in his typical cavalier manner, "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic".
Regarding the Jews, after the war he is also reported to have said, "Every worker should be given a club with which to beat to death a jew on his way home from work!"...So, it seems to me perfectly logical, considering his paranoia, & the jewish influence in his Soviet Czardom, that extermination of the jews would be on his agenda...Like Hitler, he had little use for the jews, & no conscience when it came to eliminating real or percieved enemies whether personal or "enemies of the State".

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Topspeed
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Post by Topspeed » 06 Sep 2004 18:19

Hi there,

Wonder if that is just BS and uncle Josef was actually a very nice guy who never intented to harm even a fly ?

Gulags were actually recreational vacation sites. Nobody was killed, but millions of bizarre suicides did occur and no one was actually robbed.

Finland was not attacked, but actually proposed to take over Karelia as a whole with no backtoughts. Finlands warpayments is a joke. Uncle Joe personally handed each finnish kid a allowance and western help was not denied it was just confiscated in Gdansk for a worse day.

Trip to baltics in 1940 was just a friendly visit and no people were harmed; all pictures of cruelty are just fototreatments.

Any jew reading other books than Kapital or putting up a business were not only awarded with a red star but immediately given a free private automobile.

He was such a jolly good fella that onkel Josif. We finns actually would have never imagined a better neighbour. Never loud noises no sudden wake ups no nothing.

regards,

Juke T

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Koenig u. Kaisertreu
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Post by Koenig u. Kaisertreu » 07 Sep 2004 01:42

Quite so...All the defamation of "Uncle Joe" (the name given to him by US President HS Truman) is just so much BS...He was actually as gentle as flowers in the spring, & you Finns, along with Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians,etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., have been propogandised about his and the Comintern's designs for all these years. It is high time the world recognises him properly for his early and foresighted solutions to the problem overpopulation...If not for the likes of him and Hitler, not to mention Mao or Saddam, just think how little Lebensraum we would have today, what with all those undesireables alive and making babies like rabbits in heat!

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Post by David Thompson » 07 Sep 2004 02:34

Please get back on topic.

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Post by Aleksei22 » 09 Sep 2004 20:44

David Thompson wrote:Please get back on topic.
Hello,

what is it - "Stalin's holocaust".

Newer meet it before ????


Thank you.

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Post by David Thompson » 09 Sep 2004 20:54

Aleksei 22 -- If you read through the thread before posting, you might get a clue.

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Post by michael mills » 10 Sep 2004 01:07

Aleksei,

The whole concept of "Stalin's Second Holocaust" derives from a common fallacy of logic, which is that if all entities with the quality A also have the quality B, then all entities with the quality B have the quality A.

It goes like this:

1. All anti-Semites are evil.

2. Therefore, all evil men must be anti-Semites.

3. Stalin was an evil man, therefore he must have been an anti-Semite.

4. Anti-Semites with absolute power commit holocausts of Jews.

5. Stalin was an anti-Semite with absolute power, therefore he must have planned to commit a holocaust of Jews.

Proposition 2 is of course a fallacy; an evil man need not be anti-Semitic.

Even proposition 1 is questionable; many good men have been anti-Jewish, eg St Francis of Assisi.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Sep 2004 01:22

Michael -- While I do not agree that Stalin planned a second holocaust, I think the subject is a little more complicated than your metaphor suggests. I have never seen propositions 2, 3 or 4 advanced by any writer on the subject of Stalin and the Jews, and I think proposition 5 garbles the thesis to the point of being unrecognizable. I'd be happy to discuss this with you if you provide the quotes and sources to make it worthwhile for all concerned.

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