Dresden Photos

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chalutzim
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Re: Irving's fraud

Post by chalutzim » 31 Jul 2003 14:46

Scott Smith wrote:
chalutzim wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I've never said that David Irving is the last word on anything. But he is not quite the fraud-Meister that some would hope.
:)

Wishful thinking? :?

No, personal experience having read most of his books.
:)


I'm sure "fraud" is Irving's middle name. Let's see how he treated the Dresden bombing case:

(...) Yet Evans reveals that Irving

1 - fabricated a strafing attack on German civilians and refugees by British and American pilots, rearranging dates and misattributing testimony to bolster his account;

2 - knowingly took an account of a bombing run on Prague and pretended the events happened over Dresden;

3 - derived his own initial estimate of 135,000 dead from the testimony of a lone source who supplied no documentary evidence of any kind to back up his figure;

4 - raised the count to 202,040 on the basis of a typed copy of a document which later turned out to be a forgery;

5 - refused to modify the figure even when the man who supplied the document wrote Irving to complain that he had been wrongly identified as Dresden's Deputy Chief Medical Officer when he was merely a urologist at the local hospital and "only heard of the numbers third-hand";

6 - suppressed internal evidence suggesting the document was a fake;

7 - and also suppressed testimony - a letter to Irving - from a man whose job had been to tally the dead, and who put the number at just over 30,000; and

8 - grudgingly acknowledged the discovery of an official "Final Report" that estimated the death toll at 25,000, but later discounted it, and finally

9 - ignored the discovery of the genuine document whose forged copy was referred to in (4) above. The authentic total was 20,204 - the forgers had simply added an extra zero!

Evans's dissection of the The Destruction of Dresden runs to over sixty pages; his analysis of the way Irving "uncritically accepts the testimony of members of Hitler's entourage when it is suitable to his arguments, but ignores it, suppresses it, manipulates it, or attempts to discredit it when it is not" goes on for more than a hundred pages. Neither gets more than a glancing mention at the trial.


Quoted from The Holocaust on Trial, D. D. Guttenplan, W. W. Norton & Company - New York, London - a book about Irving's trial that is worth reading.

Perhaps Scott Smith didn't read Irving's The Destruction of Dresden... :?

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 01 Aug 2003 00:36

chalutzim wrote:Perhaps Scott Smith didn't read Irving's The Destruction of Dresden...

It's available for free download here:

CLICK! Image

As far as Evans, I read his book on historiography, In Defence of History (London: 1997) and I would say that it leaves something to be desired. But then I really don't see eye-to-eye with Defenders anyway.
:wink:

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chalutzim
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Post by chalutzim » 01 Aug 2003 13:31

Scott Smith wrote:
chalutzim wrote:Perhaps Scott Smith didn't read Irving's The Destruction of Dresden...

It's available for free download here:

CLICK! Image



Hitler Industry™'s backers can afford to provide free books!

Scott Smith wrote:As far as Evans, I read his book on historiography, In Defence of History (London: 1997) and I would say that it leaves something to be desired. But then I really don't see eye-to-eye with Defenders anyway.
:wink:


Professor Richard Evans's report can be found at CLICK!. Also gratis! :wink:

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Post by Attila the Hunking » 03 Aug 2003 13:26

Perhaps i can add some useful info.

Image

This is an aerial map showing the area attacked during the Dresden Raid.
This area is shaped like an arc of a circle of about 40 deg. or so.
The poiint of this arc rest within Heinz-Steyer Stadium.
Directly norteast to Steyer Stadium lies an important railway bridge. It's noteworthy that this bridge is not contained by the targeted area.
The main railway statioan is situated in the nearness of the arc's southern corner. It's the small black rectangle a bit north and west to the southern corner, whose southern end touches barely the white line. Again, note: the main railway station was NOT included in the targeted area! Though being damaged during the attacks, the railway station not damaged enough to prevent it from being put into workable condition after a couple of days. The marshalling yards of Dresden , ImO the most valuable target to attack If you intend to disable the cities ablilties as a traffic junction, is the large black area lying far away in the south-west of Steyer-Stadium, south of the Prinz Albert-Port. Do I need to point out that these were hardly, if at all, damaged during the raid? There were indeed two targets in Dresden which were of military importance. First the Alberstadt , a huge complex of barracks, build in late 19th century to house the saxon army. A parts of it can be seen in the utmost edge of the image, around the upper right corner. It was (is) situated far in the northern outskirts of the city, far north from the River Elbe. The seccond military facility was a training center of the luftwaffe , situated in Dresden-Klotsche. Dresden-Klotsche lies even more northern than the Albertstadt, and is not shown by this map at all. Both facilities were most likely not touched by single bomb!
The only industrial installation which was relevant for warfare contained within the targeted area was AFAIK a single brand which maufactured - ironically - bomb aiming devices. IF there were others, please enlighten me about this.

Thus, judging from the way in which the raid was planned and conducted,
I can only draw the conluion that this raid was not intended to destroy traffic or military installations. The sole intention seems to have been the destruction of the city itself (and terrorizing its people).

As for the strafing: There are plenty of elderly citizens in Dresden which claim to have witnessed the strafing. My own grandmothe witnessed anglo-american fighters strafing people on the streets in Berlin, though Berlin lies about 200 km north of Dresden.
As for the strafing not possible, due to termic conditions. It would be valuable to know were exactly these people got strafed. Not in the center of the city itself, but perhaps in its (still intact) outskirts this should have been (theoretically if not prevented by fuel shortage) possible.

Another image showing the extension of destruction. Blacks stands for "destroyed" , grey for "damaged".

Image

As for putting Dresden on a pedestrian:

As you may have noticed, offical representants a well as common citizens of germany have apologized countless times for crimes comitted during the age of the third Reich. We have paid reparations to surviving holocaust victems and forced labourers. A gigantomanic memorial dedicated to the jewish victims of the 3rd Reich is about to be build amidst in Berlin.

On the other Hand, the British officials have never ever uttered a single speech ,referring to their bombing campaign , in which they said something like :"We apologize" , "We did make a mistake" "Sorry" etc. Instead they errected a bronze statue to glorify the deeds of Mr. Harris, unveiled by Queen Mum herself.

Image

Imagine how the rest of the world would respond if the german Bundespräsident proudly unveilled a statue of Hermann 'Meier' Göring or a monument dedicated to the V1/V2...

Perhaps this is why Dresden is so often repeated, because the Brits (in general) still fail - or even proudly refuse - to accomplish something which the germans call "Aufarbeitung der Vergangenheit" (translates like "working up of the past"). Instead we have a lot of "Bomber Campaign" - Apologists whose
favourite argument, a real ever evergreen, is the good ol' "They have started the war" - a real must-have for any of them. Repeating this over and over again will not make it less biased and superficial...

regards
Last edited by Attila the Hunking on 03 Aug 2003 13:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Attila the Hunking » 03 Aug 2003 13:46

Hitler Industry?'s backers can afford to provide free books!


Anyone can do that, given a couple of bucks to afford some hundred kb's of webspace.

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Post by Matt H. » 30 Aug 2003 14:19

On the other Hand, the British officials have never ever uttered a single speech, referring to their bombing campaign, in which they said something like: "We apologize", "We did make a mistake" "Sorry" etc. Instead they errected a bronze statue to glorify the deeds of Mr. Harris, unveiled by Queen Mum herself.


What do you believe the Royal Air Force should have done? RAF Bomber Command was the only way in which the Western Allied powers could have struck directly at the German war effort. After the conclusion of the Battle of Britain, our nation still stood alone - and yet we still had to find a way to target the German war industry - bombing was the only way.

From the RAF Bomber Command Official Website.
http://www.rafbombercommand.com/master_student.html

The British faced the most serious threat to their freedom since the Norman conquest. The Germans under Nazi leadership had shown themselves to be ruthless invaders and occupiers. They called their method of attack ‘Blitzkreig’ (literally ‘Lightning War’). They bombed neighbouring countries (Belgium, Holland, France etc.) without warning, and overwhelmed them with tanks and troops, dealing brutally with any resistance. The British knew they had to fight back or suffer the same fate. Aerial bombing offered the only chance to bring the war to Germany itself and Britain was the only country left in Europe with the military strength to do it.


Instead they erected a bronze statue to glorify the deeds of Mr. Harris, unveiled by Queen Mum herself.


Well, some see Sir Arthur Harris as being a man who carried out and completed a vital task in defence of our island nation. He was respected and reveared amongst his crews as a commander who truly understood their needs and requirements as airmen.

Harris commanded extraordinary respect and admiration from the men under him. They knew their commander was a man who understood the difficult conditions they fought in and was doing everything he could to improve their circumstances and chances of survival


From: http://www.rafbombercommand.com/people_commanders.html

Harris was also not the pioneer of the Dresden raid, nor was he the architect of the "area" or "city" bombing plan.

Although Harris followed through the city bombing campaign with dogged determination, he did not conceive the idea or have any part in its discussion. The plan to switch targeting priority from precision bombing of specific targets to the area bombing of industrial centres was conceived by Air Ministry planners and supported by Lord Cherwell, Churchill’s Chief Scientific Advisor who justified the policy as the ‘dehousing’ of industrial workers. Area bombing came about as a result of the technical difficulties of precision bombing at night at that time. The policy was endorsed by Churchill and orders to carry it out were formally issued to Bomber Command before Harris (who was in America at the time the policy was decided) had taken up his command.

In fact, Harris himself did not personally believe that city bombing would affect German morale, but he did believe that by destroying German industrial cities, the Germans would eventually be unable to continue waging war.

Harris has also been criticised by his detractors for continuing city bombing when others were pressing him to concentrate on more specific strategic targets such as German oil production at a time later in the war when technical developments had made precision bombing possible. Harris did not believe that bombing specific targets like oil was the quickest way to win the war. However, he did follow his orders and put considerable effort into bombing oil refineries when weather permitted (for instance, in December 1944 and January 1945 Bomber Command dropped twice as many tons of bombs on oil targets as the USAAF). He also continued the bombing offensive against cities. This campaign was supported by Churchill and the War Cabinet until almost the end of the war and culminated in Churchill’s demand that Bomber Command attack Berlin and other large cities in East Germany.


From: http://www.rafbombercommand.com/people_commanders.html

He also opposed the Dresden raid in the early stages of planning for two reasons:

1. Dresden was in South-East Germany, and entailed a considerably longer flight for his crews in the cold, February winter. He believed such a raid would place the safety of his crews in jeopardy.

2. Harris himself knew little of the aerial and ground-based defences in Dresden...

Instead we have a lot of "Bomber Campaign" - Apologists whose
favourite argument, a real ever evergreen, is the good ol' "They have started the war" - a real must-have for any of them. Repeating this over and over again will not make it less biased and superficial...


Well, I've never used that argument personally. I believe that aerial bombardment was the only way to strike directly at the German war industry from the years 1940 to early 1945. When did Allied land forces cross the German border? Spring 1945, according to most works...
Last edited by Matt H. on 30 Aug 2003 17:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by KalaVelka » 30 Aug 2003 17:35

It is funny that allied biased peoples are saying that Dresden wasnt warcrime or crime against humanity, but when it comes to WTC attacks then those al qaedas are the worst scum of the earth. Its same thing: There wasnt war indursty or major army formations, there was masses of civilians. In NewYork there was same conditions. Only differences are the victims, germans and americans.

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Post by Matt H. » 30 Aug 2003 17:49

Kasper, haven't we already had this discussion before? My response to you was given in the "Churchill and Harris - Terror Raids" thread.

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=29691&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

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Post by KalaVelka » 30 Aug 2003 18:26

Yep we have but that was a new idea :) And as i said, i am done with the subject, but just wanted to point my new opinnion.

kasper

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Post by Matt H. » 31 Aug 2003 00:16

Well Kasper, Dresden was an attack made in the midst of total warfare between industrialised nations - September 11th was an undeclared attack on the United States by a terrorist organisation. Are you labelling RAF Bomber Command a "terrorist organisation"? They fought, like any other branch of the British Armed Services, to defend our nation.

As I've previously stated in the other thread at the above address:-

"...I do not deny that the raid on Dresden was excessive, and pushing the boundaries of necessity - I doubt even Bomber Command veterans will severely refute such a claim, but neither they, nor their commander are war criminals. The 25/30 000 civilian casualties of Dresden was a tragedy - a tragic aftermath of total war between industrialised nations, and in total war, the morale of the civil population is undoubtedly a target. It is not an alien concept in wars of such grandiose scale."

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Post by xcalibur » 31 Aug 2003 05:06

KalaVelka wrote:It is funny that allied biased peoples are saying that Dresden wasnt warcrime or crime against humanity, but when it comes to WTC attacks then those al qaedas are the worst scum of the earth. Its same thing: There wasnt war indursty or major army formations, there was masses of civilians. In NewYork there was same conditions. Only differences are the victims, germans and americans.


Oh I see... how ignorant I've been all these years.... 8O

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Post by Lord Gort » 04 Sep 2003 17:51

Well I am glad that chalutzim and Matt H have been defending this thread from some of the ludicrous remarks. Chalutzim has provided us with free links to some very informative information while Matt H has shown the patience to deal with statements like....


It is funny that allied biased peoples are saying that Dresden wasnt warcrime or crime against humanity, but when it comes to WTC attacks then those al qaedas are the worst scum of the earth. Its same thing: There wasnt war indursty or major army formations, there was masses of civilians. In NewYork there was same conditions. Only differences are the victims, germans and americans.


.....my course of action would have been the shocked sarcasm of xcalibur.




Anyway I will return to this thread at some point and hopefully will help the discussion along its merry path. Understandably this thread is slightly closer to home for some on both sides who have links to the terrible suffering that aerial bombing during the war brought to Allies and Axis alike.


This is what I want to emphasise, it was only 60 years go, and so for some the memories or the reminders or monuments of the horrific bombings remain, so perhaps we can keep as cool as we have so far. These are real people we are talking about.



Friendly regards from the Shire. :)

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Post by Matt H. » 04 Sep 2003 22:56

Thank you for the kind words, Lord Gort. I was beginning to feel a little alone in my defense of Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris and RAF Bomber Command.

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Post by jmlima » 05 Sep 2003 00:25

My 2cents , extracted from a website:

"The death toll was staggering. The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000 -- possibly as many as a half a million -- persons died within a 14-hour period, whereas estimates of those who died at Hiroshima range from 90,000 to 140,000.*

Allied apologists for the massacre have often "twinned" Dresden with the English city of Coventry. But the 380 killed in Coventry during the entire war cannot begin to compare with over 1,000 times that number who were slaughtered in 14 hours at Dresden. Moreover, Coventry was a munitions center, a legitimate military target. Dresden, on the other hand, produced only china--and cups and saucers can hardly be considered military hardware!

It is interesting to further compare the respective damage to London and Dresden, especially when we recall all the Hollywood schmaltz about the "London blitz." In one night, 1,600 acres of land were destroyed in the Dresden massacre. London escaped with damage to only 600 acres during the entire war.

In one ironic note, Dresden's only conceivable military target -- its railroad yards -- was ignored by Allied bombers. They were too busy concentrating on helpless old men, women and children.

If ever there was a war crime, then certainly the Dresden Holocaust ranks as the most sordid one of all time. Yet there are no movies made today condemning this fiendish slaughter; nor did any Allied airman--or Sir Winston--sit in the dock at Nuremberg. In fact, the Dresden airmen were actually awarded medals for their role in this mass murder. But, of course, they could not have been tried, because there were "only following orders."

This is not to say that the mountains of corpses left in Dresden were ignored by the Nuremberg Tribunal. In one final irony, the prosecution presented photographs of the Dresden dead as "evidence" of alleged National Socialist atrocities against Jewish concentration-camp inmates!

Churchill, the monster who ordered the Dresden slaughter, was knighted, and the rest is history. The cold-blooded sadism of the massacre, however, is brushed aside by his biographers, who still cannot bring themselves to tell how the desire of one madman to "impress" another one let to the mass murder of up to a half million men, women and children. "

These are not my words but they are backed up by someone that was there at that time Mr. Kurt Vonnegut, Jr , that went on after the war to write an anti-war novel called "Slaughterhouse Five"

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Sep 2003 02:01

jmlima -- Most of the material you extracted from that website, whatever it may be, is not information but disinformation and misinformation. The Dresden bombings have been discussed many times in this section of the forum, and nearly all of the figures on Dresden offered in your quote have been exposed as gross errors. I suggest to you that the underlying political agenda of the website you visited may explain why the figures and conclusions are inaccurate.

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