Dresden Photos

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 05 Sep 2003 03:46

Air-power historian Walter Boyne gives the figure of at least 45 thousand killed at Hamburg, with just as many injured, and he accepts the figure of 35 thousand killed for Dresden.

My understanding is that this Dresden film was shown in German movie theaters depicting instead the Holocaust as part of the postwar brainwashing of the German people. Perhaps someone can elaborate on this.
:)

http://www.multied.com/WW2/events/image ... resden.gif

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Sep 2003 03:54

I'm curious about this claim on jmlima's website:
"This is not to say that the mountains of corpses left in Dresden were ignored by the Nuremberg Tribunal. In one final irony, the prosecution presented photographs of the Dresden dead as "evidence" of alleged National Socialist atrocities against Jewish concentration-camp inmates!"


Does anyone know what exhibit numbers are involved?

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jmlima
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Post by jmlima » 05 Sep 2003 09:38

David Thompson wrote:jmlima -- Most of the material you extracted from that website, whatever it may be, is not information but disinformation and misinformation. The Dresden bombings have been discussed many times in this section of the forum, and nearly all of the figures on Dresden offered in your quote have been exposed as gross errors. I suggest to you that the underlying political agenda of the website you visited may explain why the figures and conclusions are inaccurate.


Probably yes ,but please don't kill the messenger! :) Just trying to be helpfull , I'm always terrified when dealing with number of casualties in anything about a war, the truth often lies well hidden and it's not because we see something more often that it becomes the truth... But anyway as I said just trying to be helpfull... :)

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Sep 2003 15:49

jmlima -- It's the website which was at fault. My remarks were not directed at you personally.

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chalutzim
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Post by chalutzim » 05 Sep 2003 15:55

Scott Smith wrote:(...) My understanding is that this Dresden film was shown in German movie theaters depicting instead the Holocaust as part of the postwar brainwashing of the German people. Perhaps someone can elaborate on this.(...)


Nonsense, Scott! How could one possible brainwash people already brainwashed after being exposed many years to racial and religious hatred, cultural and scientific impoverishment, to a disgraceful propaganda, terrorized by the state police,etc???

Maybe you're thinking in a Orwelian sense of the word?

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jmlima
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Post by jmlima » 05 Sep 2003 18:11

chalutzim wrote:cultural and scientific impoverishment


Sorry to disapoint you but this happen after the war , not before, like in most of Europe for that matter... Specially after the 50's...

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Post by David Thompson » 05 Sep 2003 18:15

jmlima -- You said to Chalutzim, on the subject of the "cultural and scientific impoverishment" of Germany: "Sorry to disapoint you but this happen after the war , not before, like in most of Europe for that matter... Specially after the 50's..."

What is your authority for the proposition that Germany was culturally and scientifically impoverished after the war, and "Specially after the 50's..."?

Also, do you contend that before and during WWII Germany was not "already brainwashed after being exposed many years to racial and religious hatred, cultural and scientific impoverishment, to a disgraceful propaganda, terrorized by the state police,etc"?

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jmlima
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Post by jmlima » 05 Sep 2003 20:44

David Thompson wrote:1- What is your authority for the proposition that Germany was culturally and scientifically impoverished after the war, and "Specially after the 50's..."?

2- Also, do you contend that before and during WWII Germany was not "already brainwashed after being exposed many years to racial and religious hatred, cultural and scientific impoverishment, to a disgraceful propaganda, terrorized by the state police,etc"?



1- It's not directly related to the war, it simply happened , at least I felt it like that here in Europe, Europe after the war was destroyed and their Cultural and Scientifical engines were pretty much destroyed by the war, it become visible then that Europe's dependance , specially from the USA, was at his highest level ever, only know Europe his begining to walk again on it's own , and even now in small steps...

2- Those are completely true facts.

nihil
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Post by nihil » 06 Sep 2003 05:52

Scott> i got that picture on a cd-cover :)

jmlima> I think you need to be a bit more specefic when you are talking about being "Europe's dependance" and "even now in small steps"

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Post by Pasha » 15 Apr 2007 12:42

Which nation first began air raids on civilian cities en masse?

Germany during the first world war......

Which nation instigated terror bombings of cities during ww2?

Germany.






Dresden was the bombing of a city with civilians in it. Just as -

Warsaw
Rotterdam
Plymouth
etc
etc

====
I believe you are not comparing apple to an apple !
The German Army was attacking military targets and due to the fact that civilian exist around then their will be causality - in Russia comrade Stalin prevent the civilian to flee away and force them to be inside the War zone - like what happen in Stalingrad .
but what happen in Dresden and other German cities never happen before in the history of war/War crimes !
simply what happen
" Hundreds of Airplanes carrying thousands of Tons of Bombs ; constructing a Firestorm with Chimerical bombs on a city that have no single military units ; no single Anti Aircraft ; no Single Tanks ; the City of Bourgeois ; city of Arts .
and the Allies intension was flatten the city !
this never done by the German Army and never done by any other army !!
"pure intention to flatten a city full of only civilian "
some of the resources confirmed the killing of up to 350,000 and the most correct undisputed figure is 135,000 and probably as much as that number between wounded ; seriously wounded and perhaps died later.
The Allied tried to justified this massacre by saying the city was transportation center ; had many refuges solders etc but the fact still remains ; there is no Army and there is no Military activity at all in the city.
The head of Dresden said Dresden never experience the war !! even the Movie Theatre in Dresden were still open and working till end of 1944 ! yes Movie and Theatre and the WW2 is running for more than 4 years - Dresden was very peaceful city .
Dresden was the City of Europe and perhaps the most astonishing city in Architecture around the Globe .
David Irving the British Historian wrote some Book which is free about that Holocaust .
http://www.fpp.co.uk/ see many photo of Dresden after the Allied Raids.

Some news - not confirmed that the USA Raids on the second and third day targeted the rest of the Civilian who survived and while they were running away ... imagine thousands of refuges leaving Dresden and the US Air force completing the tragedy by killing them ...

I agree that we can not blame the Pilots or even (the Churchill Puppet - the Butcher - the Bomber ) Sir Arthur Harrith can not be blamed only ! the main giant Architecture of Terror Bomb which leads to Dresden is Mr. Churchill

once he take on office ; the RAF started to attach the German Cities of terror Bombing ( so Germany didn't started ) and he forced Hitler to do night bombing of UK Military targets
some Analysis said Churchill wanted the UK people to feel in depth the war and prepared them self for it !
some said Hitler wanted to avoid the destruction of Architecture of London and Historical places as much as he could and Churchill forced hi to that.
at the end of the day Hitler had the Air supremacy over at least the first 6 Months in War of Britain!
maximum civilian causality during that AND AFTER around 60,000 !!! so far below the German causality of civilian !!
this made solid prove that no intention of German Luftwaffe to attach purely civilian and conduct terror bombing of UK lands ; it was aimed towards the Military targets.

One more things.
Germany started the war on Poland ! no doubts about it .
But they didn't started the war on UK and France !!
England and France declare war on Germany and started to attach German ships in the north sea because of what Germany invaded Poland !
BUT THERE IS ONE SOLID FACT two/three weeks after Germany invaded Poland the Soviet Red Army invaded Poland too !! England and France didn't declare war on Soviet Army !!

at the End of the War the Soviet Army occupied Poland !! and England and France never said any thing about it .
so here is the short Summary
the Whole war started because of Protecting Poland from Germany = according to UK&France
at the end they delivered Poland , the whole Eastern Europe and part of Germany to Soviet Stalin !
Do you think who win in the second world War ...
did they really protect Poland or they simply wanted Destroyed Germany !!

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Post by tloB » 15 Apr 2007 19:57

Don't forget Guernica. The first massive city destruction by airforce.
AND the target was just civilians. Mostly women and children.

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Post by David Thompson » 15 Apr 2007 20:36

They sow the wind, and they reap the whirlwind.-- Hosea VIII:7.


A contemporary analogy: David Low cartoon, London Evening Standard, 30 Jun 1942:
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BAZ
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Post by BAZ » 15 Apr 2007 22:00

"The intention to flatten a city full only of civilian" might also be a factor for the V1 and V2 rockets Germany were eager to throw at Europe and Britain.
They certainly WEREN'T aiming for specific targets.
And as a lad growing up in Liverpool, I could see bombed out areas that hadn't been rebuilt.
And that was in the 60's and 70's!!!

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Post by David Thompson » 16 Apr 2007 03:24

For our readers -- These unsourced opinions of Pasha are off-topic in this thread, but informed comments can be posted in these threads:

(1)
Germany started the war on Poland ! no doubts about it .
But they didn't started the war on UK and France !!

For Hitler's statements about his intention to start a war with western Europe, and why he attacked Poland first, see: viewtopic.php?t=117755

(2)
BUT THERE IS ONE SOLID FACT two/three weeks after Germany invaded Poland the Soviet Red Army invaded Poland too !! England and France didn't declare war on Soviet Army !!

This "so what" observation is discussed at: viewtopic.php?t=112190

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by kujah » 22 Apr 2008 11:34

I'm just wondering, if there were no legally-binding treaties or conventions in relations to the conduct of aerial warfare and bombardment, does this mean that the perspective that Dresden was a "war crime" in the legal sense is not a valid point?

I've got a few more questions:

2. As the accuracy of heavy bombers was increasing in the latter stages of the war, could a precision-attack similar to the ones on the Ruhr dams or the Tirpitz been an alternative form of attack at that time for the RAF and USAAF on the railways, marshalling yards and factories in Dresden?

3. What were the conditions like during the month of February 1945?

4. Could the military objectives be considered disproportionate to the damage inflicted based on today's laws in any way?

5. What was the damage like on the actual military targets in Dresden after the firebombing? And in relation to the railways, did the damage have a short or long-term effect on the movement of Wehrmacht troops to the Eastern Front?

6. Does the fact that Dresden had no anti-aircraft protection but a couple of fighters and searchlights have any impact on the legitimacy of the city as a military target?

7. Dresden was a legitimate military target. But was it a "military necessity"? in hindsight? In the context of the early 1945, did Bomber Command and the USAAF consider the bombing of Dresden to be a "military necessity"?

8. In terms of the historical debates surrounding Dresden, we can call Irving and Friedrich as "revisionists". What type of historians could we classify Frederick Taylor and Gotz Bergander? (eg- post-modernist, empiricist, modernist etc)

Thanks for any replies, and apologies if the answers already have been provided in previous posts or in other threads. I just had a quick skim through thus far :D

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