Dresden Photos

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by David Thompson » 13 Oct 2008 14:14

Please avoid personal comments in posts, gentlemen.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by Penn44 » 13 Oct 2008 20:34

tonyh wrote:BTW, I mentioned nothing about "White hats" or "Black hats" and out of the two of us, I'd say my world view is made up of more greyer shades than your own.
Tony
The following statement is not intended to be a personal comment, but on the war itself. When it comes to World War II and the defeat of Nazi Germany, no war in the history of human civilization was more black and white. Nazi Germany was repugnant and odious, and had to be destroyed.

Penn44

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I once was told that I was vain, but I knew that vanity was a fault, so I gave it up because I have no faults.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by Seitengewehr98 » 30 Oct 2008 06:52

"No country "...uses its citizens as shields", that's simply a very poor excuse used by an attacking country for civilian death."

Tony

This is off topic, but having actually been to Iraq as an Infantryman, I can safely say that I have SEEN with my own eyes civillians being used to deter returning fire on an insurgent or insurgents. Extremist Islamic way of life and the value placed on life is considerably different than in the west, and the insurgency has taken advantage of this every chance they can get.

Regarding the Bombing of Dresden, I would ask how important intent is in determining if something is a war crime? For instance: The intent behind bombing Dresden was, among other things, to decrease morale and help bring about the end of a war (thus saving lives), NOT to murder civillians. Whereas the intent behind something like the Shoah was simply to destroy the existence of a specific people.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by tonyh » 30 Oct 2008 10:22

The intent behind bombing Dresden was, among other things, to decrease morale and help bring about the end of a war (thus saving lives)
That's the spin.

The result and reality is dead civilians.

It would take some depth of sand over somebodys head to think otherwise.

As has been said on many of the Dresden threads on this forum...IF the RAF and USAF had truly wanted to directly target the war materiel near and around the city, they could have. Instead, they chose to simply bomb the centre of the city. That's not targetng anything that would stop the war any quicker.

The spin is tiresome. The reality still remains.


Tony

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by tonyh » 30 Oct 2008 10:24

Extremist Islamic way of life and the value placed on life is considerably different than in the west,
Every enemy says the same thing.


Tony

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by wolfpaw518 » 30 Oct 2008 10:50

I just read thru all the posts. wow! I never knew.

Hitler WAS taking over the world, not just trying to, millions were already dead. This was big, he had to be stopped. In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote that terror will always succeed unless met by equal terror, he was right! If anyone in the Allied High Command had bothered to read this they would have known what they were up against, As easily as the nazis originally took over Europe, I'd say they hadn't.
And as we know today, Hitler's win or die policy held to the German people as well, Germans knew this, but I feel that the Allies hoped they weren't as die-hard as Hitler. Germany was living the good life so far. This is what I've always believed was the reason for carpet bombing cities, to break Hitlers control on the German people, Hitler was impitant without the masses, and of course the "tit for tat,"( you bomb our cities and we'll bomb yours.) From what I've read about Dresden in this post it was way over kill !!! I now want to know why, to me, "why" would be the determination if this was a war crime or not.
Was the Atomic bombing of Japan a war crime? Details aside, two entire MAJOR city of civilians were wiped out, it worked, Japan capitulated and the war there ended, saving millions of lives that would have been lost if had the war gone on. so does the end justify the means? I've always understood that "The need of the many out way the need of the few", whole city's lost but whole nations saved, (there thinking, not mine)
If there was a reason for TOTAL annihilation of Dresden, I think it would have surfaced by now. The "reason" is lost to the past. Was it a war crime? We'll never know.


Just my thoughts...

neil


Oh... Sadam did use "Human Shields". Stalin on the other hand refused to let the population of Stalingrad leave so the Soviet troops had something to "Stand" and fight for, knowing full well they would be slaughtered, I'd call that a twist on the human shield idea. It worked.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by Seitengewehr98 » 30 Oct 2008 12:30

Tony, you really must understand that dying in Islamic culture is NOT the same as in Western culture. This has nothing at all to do with being one-sided or being an enemy of anyone. The Islamic religion is fatalistic. They believe if something happens, it is the will of Allah, and they simply do NOT have the same attitude towards life that we have. Please do some research on this. This is a simple fact of that religion, and ANYONE who has any knowledge of Islamic culture will agree. I'm not at all saying that one is right and one is wrong. It's a difference in culture. So please do NOT call me an enemy. I would like to be able to have ONE debate on this site without being subtle insults and being called an "enemy."

The reality, as you put it (and that I have experienced in person) is that war IS killing. The success of a country's military is considerably linked to the health, morale, existence, of it's civillian population. If you believe that attacking a civillian population in order to end a war or further any strategic or tactical means is wrong, then fine, you are certainly entitled to that opinion. But it seems you are suggesting that there was other than strategic reasons behind the bombing of Dresden, as you are calling it a "spin." So do you have any evidence to suggest that the bombing was done for other reasons?

Do you consider the sinking of the Lusitania a war crime?

I do not consider the bombing of Dresden a war crime. I DO consider it an unnecessary amount of civillian casualties, but this is NOT the same as a war crime. If I were to consider this a war crime, I would also have to consider England's blockade against German during WWI a warcrime, as it resulted in the death of thousands of civilians from starvation. Nor do I consider Imperial Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare against civillian merchant vessels a war crime.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by tonyh » 30 Oct 2008 13:34

Seitengewehr98 wrote:Tony, you really must understand that dying in Islamic culture is NOT the same as in Western culture. This has nothing at all to do with being one-sided or being an enemy of anyone. The Islamic religion is fatalistic. They believe if something happens, it is the will of Allah, and they simply do NOT have the same attitude towards life that we have. Please do some research on this. This is a simple fact of that religion, and ANYONE who has any knowledge of Islamic culture will agree. I'm not at all saying that one is right and one is wrong. It's a difference in culture. So please do NOT call me an enemy. I would like to be able to have ONE debate on this site without being subtle insults and being called an "enemy."
I don't care what you have to say about Islam, or Allah or anything else on the matter.

The reality, as you put it (and that I have experienced in person) is that war IS killing. The success of a country's military is considerably linked to the health, morale, existence, of it's civillian population. If you believe that attacking a civillian population in order to end a war or further any strategic or tactical means is wrong, then fine, you are certainly entitled to that opinion. But it seems you are suggesting that there was other than strategic reasons behind the bombing of Dresden, as you are calling it a "spin." So do you have any evidence to suggest that the bombing was done for other reasons?
Yes, war is killing. I have never said anything to the contrary. Except propaganda usually says that one country's killing is worse than anothers, in order to justify certain actions. In addition, I have never said anything about wrong or right on this subject. You're bringing those labels to the discussion.

The "Spin" I am talking about is the lengths that governments go through to avoid calling their actions by its real name. Bomber Command's carefully worded "Destroy cililian morale" and the subsequent practice avoids the obvious reality. It's the murder of the civilian population, plain and simple. It's just dressed up in fancy mis-leading terminology.

Do you consider the sinking of the Lusitania a war crime?
I've never mentioned anything about a "war crime". What has the sinking of the Lusitania have to do with the bombing of Dresden?
I do not consider the bombing of Dresden a war crime. I DO consider it an unnecessary amount of civillian casualties, but this is NOT the same as a war crime. If I were to consider this a war crime, I would also have to consider England's blockade against German during WWI a warcrime, as it resulted in the death of thousands of civilians from starvation. Nor do I consider Imperial Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare against civillian merchant vessels a war crime.
Well, then i think you'll find ourselves in complete agreement. :)



Tony

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by David Thompson » 30 Oct 2008 16:01

What has the sinking of the Lusitania have to do with the bombing of Dresden?
Indeed. Let's stay on topic.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by Seitengewehr98 » 30 Oct 2008 16:45

"I don't care what you have to say about Islam, or Allah or anything else on the matter.'

You cared enough to call me an enemy, didn't you? At least I've been there.

So basically it would make you feel more comfortable if bomber command called it "carpet bombing civillians?" Is that your argument? Because it's getting a little confusing.

Mr. Thompson, is attempting to draw a paralell between comparable events somehow getting off topic? Do I really need to explain that further? Let me know if I do.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by David Thompson » 30 Oct 2008 19:16

Seitengewehr98 -- You wrote:
Mr. Thompson, is attempting to draw a paralell between comparable events somehow getting off topic? Do I really need to explain that further? Let me know if I do.
Neither you nor tonyh think the bombing of Dresden was a war crime in Feb 1945, which is the topic under discussion here. Since neither of you think it was a war crime, that doesn't leave much to chat about within the subject matter of the H&WC section of the forum.

The Lusitania sinking, and whether that was a war crime when it took place, deserves a separate discussion of its own. Keeping discussions of alleged war crimes separate makes it easier for interested readers to find them, whether the crimes or non-crimes are comparable or not. We have the topicality rule for our readers' convenience, so they don't have to search through a large number of sprawling, multi-topic threads to find the information they're looking for. The bombing of Dresden, for example, was discussed in literally scores of threads before we adopted the topicality rule.

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by tonyh » 31 Oct 2008 09:57

Seitengewehr98 wrote:"I don't care what you have to say about Islam, or Allah or anything else on the matter.'

You cared enough to call me an enemy, didn't you? At least I've been there.

So what if you've "been there".

Enemies have been denegrating each other since day one. You say that people you fought against put a lesser value on life than "people in the West". Well, that slant is nothing new. It's been said about every "other side" in probably every conflict. The Indians put a lesser value on life, the Japanese put a lesser value on life, the Germans put a lesser value on life, the Russians put a lesser value on life, the Vietnamese put a lesser value on life...ad nauseum...

You're not the first to come out with that line, Seitengewehr98.

But, I say this only as a reply to your post. I don't wish to derail this thread any further. So, I suggest we drop this angle and walk away with our differences on the matter.


Tony

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by bf109 emil » 24 Aug 2009 09:54

I wonder why Dresden has been brought forward as a war crime...had there been no fire storm would it have been still a crime? Was it a crime because up to that point it hadn't been bombed? As numerous targets dried up as a potential for Bomber Command and the USAAF, new and various cities would of course come into the scope, what say if Dresden had been bombed a few times earlier, would this of changed opinions...The tactics used at Dresden where not much different then faced or scene of other German cities...Large bomb, i.e. cookies where dropped, they helped destroy a cities ability to use water mains and knock the roofs off of buildings and factories where incendiaries would catch and destroy where numerous factories where left untouched by dropping only 500 lb HE bombs and missing vital equipment, fire had a way to destroy oil baths and warp machinery where as HE didn't...because Dresden and say Hamburg contained an abundant supply of combustion able material a firestorm took hold as with the likes of mainly wooden built cities of Japan...To be a war crime i think certain rules of warfare had to be violated which wasn't the case as with other cities bombed after surrendering or before an act of war was declared making those a H&WC

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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by Phil Nix » 24 Aug 2009 11:02

I find that a large number of posters are disgusted over what happened to Dresden . As a 71 year old I can just remember my home town Birmingahm being bombed and the centre of Coventry being destroyed. So I am not disgusted with what happened in Dresden. What I am disgusted about is going to war at all surely bein intelligent beings we can find other ways to solve our problems but I suppose as human beings start wars we will never change
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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by Pasha » 13 Jan 2014 06:27

bf109 emil wrote: The tactics used at Dresden where not much different then faced or scene of other German cities...Large bomb, i.e. cookies where dropped,
That's right.

I really hate when people highlight Dresden only as a German city destroyed with its civilian population in WWII !!

All German large cities has been totally leveled or utterly destroyed !
Not a single large city survived without utterly damage or ruins! All large cities .... you name it !!
Civilians , children , helpless women , schools , hospitals , houses etc every thing was under destruction from these cruel and savages raids.

And now people try to reduce the crime of this acts !
Dresden probably came on the top of the list just because it was the city of aristocrat and full of arts , luxury architectures of Arts , music and palaces , and above all it has no military targets at all - it was almost undefinable -
some body I guess Bomber Harry said :
- It was center of communications :-)
Just because it has large conjunction e.g train station and buss stations which connect you to other cities you can call it military targets and to wipe out the city!

It was savages act & unforgivable crime conducted to kill civilians and destroy the heritage and monuments of the German culture just to demoralize them!
This is Mr. Churchill thinking - approved by FDR
The Soviet Union was giving propaganda films against the west regarding the savages of this act.

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