Dresden Photos

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Dan Reinbold
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Post by Dan Reinbold » 25 Jul 2003 19:45

This was a similar fate of most major German cities...if you have ever been to Frankfurt, a visitor is generally struck by the lack of "old" buildings when one compares it to a city like Vienna for example which largely escaped the bombing of Hamburg, Dresden...and even Berlin for that matter.

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Leica
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Post by Leica » 25 Jul 2003 20:14

Caldric wrote:The old tired "two wrongs do not make a right" is just that old and tired and very incorrect.


No, it isn't incorrect. The Dresden air raid was a war crime like many others - of absolutely no military importance and a human desaster.

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Lord Gort
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Post by Lord Gort » 25 Jul 2003 22:10

Which nation first began air raids on civilian cities en masse?

Germany during the first world war......

Which nation instigated terror bommbings of cities during ww2?

Germany.






Dresden was the bombing of a city with civilians in it. Just as -

Warsaw
Rotterdam
Plymouth
Stockport
Manchester
Coventry
London
Birmingham
Belgrade
Moscow
Lenningrad
Portsmouth
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Rouen etc etc etc etc etc etc

were cities with civilians in.



Was the releasing of hundreds of v1's on London a warcrime. A weapon with no warning for its victims?

The people of ALL nations that suffered air raids are to be pitied and commended for there bravery. But at least in an air raid you have some warning and hopefully a shelter.


Where was the warning for the thousands who died from the V1?

You think if the war had carried on a while longer that Hitler and the Wehmacht would have not used the V2 to its full potential and flattened London?

Your talking about a National Government that seriously thought about killing all captured allied air men as a reprisal for Dresden! The hipocrisy!





regards,

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Whisper
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Post by Whisper » 25 Jul 2003 22:15

Lord Gort wrote:Which nation first began air raids on civilian cities en masse?

Germany during the first world war......

Which nation instigated terror bommbings of cities during ww2?

Germany.

Dresden was the bombing of a city with civilians in it. Just as -

Warsaw
Rotterdam
Plymouth
Stockport
Manchester
Coventry
London
Birmingham
Belgrade
Moscow
Lenningrad
Portsmouth
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Rouen etc etc etc etc etc etc

were cities with civilians in.

Was the releasing of hundreds of v1's on London a warcrime. A weapon with no warning for its victims?
The people of ALL nations that suffered air raids are to be pitied and commended for there bravery. But at least in an air raid you have some warning and hopefully a shelter.
Where was the warning for the thousands who died from the V1?
You think if the war had carried on a while longer that Hitler and the Wehmacht would have not used the V2 to its full potential and flattened London?
Your talking about a National Government that seriously thought about killing all captured allied air men as a reprisal for Dresden! The hipocrisy!




You are right ! I would never doubt that, but is this an excuse for airattacks like on Dresden and Hamburg, which one and only reason was to kill civilians!? I would say no, at that moment they put themselves on the same level where they saw Germany. A crime cant be an excuse for another crime.

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Lord Gort
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Post by Lord Gort » 25 Jul 2003 22:58

Sorry, i got a bit carried away :) , the allies did belive there to be sufficient military reason in bombing dresden, transport hubb, troops moving through the city etc etc

German bombing of Rotterdam and London was also just to kill civilians to persuade the dead civilians governments to come to agreement with Germany etc etc


She reaped what she sewed.


regards,

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David Brown
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Dresden Photos

Post by David Brown » 25 Jul 2003 23:01

Sorry Whisper but I'm with Lord Gort on this one. War is war however dumb and stupid it is. Reprisals, if that is what we want to call them, are a part and parcel of it. Britain had been under the cosh of the Luftwaffe for years before we were able to retaliate in a likewise fashion.

Even the Channel Islands were subjected to a needless bombing campaign before the Wehrmacht finally realised that there were no British military anywhere on the islands.

You are right when you say one cannot justify the other, but this was a time of war and civil niceties are well down the pecking order.

Dave

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Whisper
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Re: Dresden Photos

Post by Whisper » 25 Jul 2003 23:08

David Brown wrote:Sorry Whisper but I'm with Lord Gort on this one. War is war however dumb and stupid it is. Reprisals, if that is what we want to call them, are a part and parcel of it. Britain had been under the cosh of the Luftwaffe for years before we were able to retaliate in a likewise fashion.

Even the Channel Islands were subjected to a needless bombing campaign before the Wehrmacht finally realised that there were no British military anywhere on the islands.

You are right when you say one cannot justify the other, but this was a time of war and civil niceties are well down the pecking order.

Dave


I just want to make clear that my opinion has nothing to do with the reason that this topic deals with a german city, i also think that the senseless bomb attacks(including the V-weapon) on english or whatever nationality´s city were warcrimes that should have been tried, espacialy attacks which only reason like said so many times was only to kill civlists.
You may have noticed that i never used the word "we", to me a warcrime should not be a question of nationality.

Bw
Dennis

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Lord Gort
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Post by Lord Gort » 25 Jul 2003 23:27

I understand and respect your view on such a passionate issue. Indeed I even see some common ground in your post, and thankyou for not turning this thread into a "your side was evil...no YOUR side was evil" thread.



regards,

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Post by PAK » 25 Jul 2003 23:35

Hi everybody, I don't really think it was a war crime, I agree with caldric, it was WAR, and the bombing of dresden, würzburg, hamburg, frankfurt, etc.. were just part of a war.

It just shows that there was no good vs. evil rather human vs. human, and war always brings the worst of man to the surface, I know my grandmother saw killings of allied pilots, don't know how she reacted, but at least she didn't do anything.

I think there are no heros in war, just ordinary men.

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David Brown
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Dresden Photos

Post by David Brown » 25 Jul 2003 23:56

PAK wrote:I think there are no heros in war, just ordinary men.


There are no winners either.

I understand what you are saying Whisper and I concur with Lord Gort.

Dave

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Leica
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Post by Leica » 26 Jul 2003 08:42

Lord Gort wrote:Sorry, i got a bit carried away :) , the allies did belive there to be sufficient military reason in bombing dresden, transport hubb, troops moving through the city etc etc

German bombing of Rotterdam and London was also just to kill civilians to persuade the dead civilians governments to come to agreement with Germany etc etc


She reaped what she sewed.


regards,


Sorry, but thats a myth. The allies neither believed that Dresden was a important military target nor they didn't want to kill civilians. The whole purpose for the bombing was pure terror and mass destruction (see the intensive usage of fire bombs). As i have written in another thread: one crime does not justify another. So please don't hide behind Rotterdam etc. Thats no excuse for what your fellow citizens have done to us and our cities.

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Leica
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Post by Leica » 26 Jul 2003 08:46

PAK wrote:Hi everybody, I don't really think it was a war crime, I agree with caldric, it was WAR, and the bombing of dresden, würzburg, hamburg, frankfurt, etc.. were just part of a war.

It just shows that there was no good vs. evil rather human vs. human, and war always brings the worst of man to the surface, I know my grandmother saw killings of allied pilots, don't know how she reacted, but at least she didn't do anything.

I think there are no heros in war, just ordinary men.


Thats nonsense. The bombing of Dresden war a warcrime. The target of the fire bombs was the inner city (Altstadtkern), nothing else. Interesting enough nearly all military targets weren't hit and damaged in these horrifying nights.

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Leica
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Post by Leica » 26 Jul 2003 08:50

Lord Gort wrote:I understand and respect your view on such a passionate issue. Indeed I even see some common ground in your post, and thankyou for not turning this thread into a "your side was evil...no YOUR side was evil" thread.regards,


The decisive point is not who was evil and not. The important question concerns the nature of the Dresden air raid. Its natur was mass klling, terror and pure destruction born out of hate. The city was of absolutely no military importance (a few days later the Red Army reached its outer borders). It is unbelievable and tasteless (in front of the thousands of victims) that some guys always try to turn and manipulate the truth in their favor. We have accepted our warcrimes, now its your turn to follow us.

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Post by Caldric » 26 Jul 2003 08:53

Leica wrote:
PAK wrote:Hi everybody, I don't really think it was a war crime, I agree with caldric, it was WAR, and the bombing of dresden, würzburg, hamburg, frankfurt, etc.. were just part of a war.

It just shows that there was no good vs. evil rather human vs. human, and war always brings the worst of man to the surface, I know my grandmother saw killings of allied pilots, don't know how she reacted, but at least she didn't do anything.

I think there are no heros in war, just ordinary men.


Thats nonsense. The bombing of Dresden war a warcrime. The target of the fire bombs was the inner city (Altstadtkern), nothing else. Interesting enough nearly all military targets weren't hit and damaged in these horrifying nights.


Stalingrad was about the identical situation as Dresden. 40,000 dead almost all civilians, fire bombed by German Air Force for days, city stuffed with refugees and broken military units. Far be it for Germany to cry foul and place Dresden upon a pedestal.

Before someone cranks up the old "two wrongs don't make it right", the fact is this is how it was, horrible. Was acceptable means to wage war in 1940’s, civilians were targets and total war is destructive.

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PAK
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Post by PAK » 26 Jul 2003 11:02

Leica wrote:Thats nonsense. The bombing of Dresden war a warcrime. The target of the fire bombs was the inner city (Altstadtkern), nothing else. Interesting enough nearly all military targets weren't hit and damaged in these horrifying nights.

That's just naive, if you expect war without "warcrimes", so let the volunteer soldiers line up on an empty battlefield and fight.
Today war is a crime itself.

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