Document related to the Polish POWs in USSR in 1940.

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michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 31 Jul 2003 11:53

This is a very interesting document posted by Oleg.

Let us not get distracted by the issue of the Katyn massacres. Let us rather look at what the document means.

What it means is that in November 1940 (ie several months after the Katyn massacre had occurred), the Soviet Government was trying to form an army out of the surviving Polish POWs, and the few Czech POWs, for the purpose of fighting Germany.

That was precisely at the time when Molotov was about to go to Berlin for talks with Hitler aimed at removing the problems that were arising in the German-Soviet relationship.

Therefore, it shows that Molotov did not go to Berlin in good faith, and that the subsequent Soviet offer to join the Three-Power Pact, subject to stringent conditions, was not made in good faith, since the Soviet Union was already preparing for war with Germany.

This is an important point relating to the issue of whether the German attack on the Soviet Union was a preventive strike, aimed at warding off a Soviet attack on Germany that was being prepared. The document posted by Oleg shows that in fact the Soviet Union was making such preparations.

In fact, the document presents nothing new. The book I read by Professor Raack, "Stalin's Drive to the West", revealed that the Soviet Union was setting up Polish units for a war with Germany well before the German attack. Dr Joachim Hoffmann said the same thing in his book "Stalin's War of Extermination".

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 31 Jul 2003 18:14

michael mills wrote: ...In fact, the document presents nothing new. The book I read by Professor Raack, "Stalin's Drive to the West", revealed that the Soviet Union was setting up Polish units for a war with Germany well before the German attack. Dr Joachim Hoffmann said the same thing in his book "Stalin's War of Extermination".


Michael, say it ain’t so…The Soviets planning an invasion westward again? Oleg won’t like to hear this. :wink:

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Post by Reigo » 31 Jul 2003 18:41

1) The Poles were left to establish their own eastern borders after Versailles – and how were they to do this other than militarily? Secondly, are you denying that the Soviets did not intend on spreading their ideology into Europe via “aggression” – first by overthrowing the fledgling Polish democracy and then onto Germany?


The Bolsheviks thought in 1919 that the West has lost its "revolutionary activity" and therefore in the near future there can't be "proletariat revolution." Besides they had enough problems with the Whites. The Bolos turned their eyes instead to the East (India was their main target), but before they managed to do anything there, the Poles started their grand offensive in the spring of 1920 and during the succesful Soviet counter-offensive the dreams for "revolution" in Europe returned...

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 31 Jul 2003 20:49

Reigo wrote:The Bolsheviks thought in 1919 that the West has lost its "revolutionary activity" and therefore in the near future there can't be "proletariat revolution." Besides they had enough problems with the Whites. The Bolos turned their eyes instead to the East (India was their main target), but before they managed to do anything there, the Poles started their grand offensive in the spring of 1920 and during the succesful Soviet counter-offensive the dreams for "revolution" in Europe returned...


Reigo, further to my previous post, in 1919 and into 1920 Lenin and others in the Soviet hierarchy actually felt very strongly that they could count on a sizable numbers of Polish and even German ‘proletariat’ to rise up and spark a revolution on the advance of the Red Army. In the case of Poland they soon realized their miscalculation as there was no such movement within the newly independent country. The Poles were swept in a renewed patriotism after the dream of their generation and its predecessors of a free Poland was realized. The Poles by and large simply weren’t interested in the schemes of their former oppressors, but rather buckled own to rebuild their ravaged and destitute country.

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Post by michael mills » 01 Aug 2003 01:39

Another point of interest.

The document refers to a Colonel Svoboda as the commander of the Czech POWs.

Ludvik Svoboda, promoted to general, later was the commander of Czech forces fighting as part of the Red Army.

In 1968, Svoboda was President of Czechoslovakia when the Warsaw Pact forces invaded.

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Post by Tapani K. » 01 Aug 2003 10:35

oleg wrote:there is no mentioning of Anders, who eventually became first C-in-C of Polish forces.


According to this site
http://www.andersarmy.com/anders-bio.htm
Anders was in prison at this time.

regards,
Tapani K.

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Post by Dan » 01 Aug 2003 12:41

When I think of beating the war drums, I think of Lipski as much as Hitler. Hungary went in looking over her shoulder, but didn't the Soviets take a chunk and add it to the Ukraine? That would account for Sam's 500.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 03 Aug 2003 20:02

michael mills wrote:This is a very interesting document posted by Oleg.

Let us not get distracted by the issue of the Katyn massacres. Let us rather look at what the document means.

What it means is that in November 1940 (ie several months after the Katyn massacre had occurred), the Soviet Government was trying to form an army out of the surviving Polish POWs, and the few Czech POWs, for the purpose of fighting Germany.

That was precisely at the time when Molotov was about to go to Berlin for talks with Hitler aimed at removing the problems that were arising in the German-Soviet relationship.

Therefore, it shows that Molotov did not go to Berlin in good faith, and that the subsequent Soviet offer to join the Three-Power Pact, subject to stringent conditions, was not made in good faith, since the Soviet Union was already preparing for war with Germany.

This is an important point relating to the issue of whether the German attack on the Soviet Union was a preventive strike, aimed at warding off a Soviet attack on Germany that was being prepared. The document posted by Oleg shows that in fact the Soviet Union was making such preparations.

In fact, the document presents nothing new. The book I read by Professor Raack, "Stalin's Drive to the West", revealed that the Soviet Union was setting up Polish units for a war with Germany well before the German attack. Dr Joachim Hoffmann said the same thing in his book "Stalin's War of Extermination".
What it means is that in November 1940 (ie several months after the Katyn massacre had occurred), the Soviet Government was trying to form an army out of the surviving Polish POWs, and the few Czech POWs, for the purpose of fighting Germany.
No mr. Millis it was not trying to form an army – it was playing with an idea –very different concept.

That was precisely at the time when Molotov was about to go to Berlin for talks with Hitler aimed at removing the problems that were arising in the German-Soviet relationship.

Therefore, it shows that Molotov did not go to Berlin in good faith, and that the subsequent Soviet offer to join the Three-Power Pact, subject to stringent conditions, was not made in good faith, since the Soviet Union was already preparing for war with Germany.
Obviously it was preparing for the war with Germany, since Soviet lintel showed that Germany was preparing an attack – on USSR. Purpose of Molotov visit was to establish what the hell Germany wants, since historically there were some demands brought forward by the aggressor, before attack ensued.
This is an important point relating to the issue of whether the German attack on the Soviet Union was a preventive strike, aimed at warding off a Soviet attack on Germany that was being prepared. The document posted by Oleg shows that in fact the Soviet Union was making such preparations.
The document posted by Oleg shows nothing like that whosever – what it shows that there was an idea of forming Polish unit – the idea that was not actually realize by the scenario proposed. Mr Millsi undoubtedly knows the history of Polish units in the USSR. I can’t help but wonder mr. Mills is not it a bit tiresome for you step on the same “mounting Soviet aggression” rake – one can imagine that you would have quite a big bump on your forehead by now. I posted more than once here military plans fro the Soviet Border Military districts that are clearly defensive nature – so what seems to be the problem?
In fact, the document presents nothing new. The book I read by Professor Raack, "Stalin's Drive to the West", revealed that the Soviet Union was setting up Polish units for a war with Germany well before the German attack. Dr Joachim Hoffmann said the same thing in his book "Stalin's War of Extermination".
well guess the both of the above mentioned books is in error then – would not be the first one though –especially for Hoffman.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 03 Aug 2003 20:21

Reigo, further to my previous post, in 1919 and into 1920 Lenin and others in the Soviet hierarchy actually felt very strongly that they could count on a sizable numbers of Polish and even German ‘proletariat’ to rise up and spark a revolution on the advance of the Red Army. In the case of Poland they soon realized their miscalculation as there was no such movement within the newly independent country. The Poles were swept in a renewed patriotism after the dream of their generation and its predecessors of a free Poland was realized. The Poles by and large simply weren’t interested in the schemes of their former oppressors, but rather buckled own to rebuild their ravaged and destitute country.
Find me one military directive of Red Army High Command (and no propaganda statements doe not count ) that would use word “world revolution” or something like that.

Re the Curzon line - I understand it to be Poland's minimum frontier line as proposed by the Allied Supreme Council on 8 December 1919 – although it is important to note that it was recognized as being preliminary and negotiable. Moreover, the Allies also anticipated awarding additional eastern territory containing large Polish populations to Poland.
negotiable being key word – Pilsudskiy and Co did not feel like negotiating though. Poland managed to fight all its neighbors – including no Bolsheviks ones, basic strategy being grab as much as you can mad then present Allies with a fate acompli. Actually, PolAntek, I went through postings on this thread and I got distinct feeling that I have read or heard the same rhetoric somewhere else before.. the parses such as
The Poles were left to establish their own eastern borders after Versailles – and how were they to do this other than militarily?
But then I realized – it is the same kind of rhetoric Nazi used then they attacked USSR. Even pre-war Polish international policies rather reminiscent of the German ones –under the Hitler. Namely grab what you can while can. Then just like the German they attacked what later became USSR got their butts kicked in and suddenly began posing as defenders of Europe from communism. Only if in the case of Nazis the whole thing is generally accepted as ridiculous, the same garbage from Poles is deemed to be true.
Oleg, it’s been just over a decade since the communists were toppled in your country (assuming that you are from one of the former Soviet bloc countries). It may be possible that you are obtaining your history from some of the corrupt sources that were used in the Soviet education system to educate the masses with the twisted Soviet version of events.
spre me you maybes, you have no idea what my sources, are nor do you know If they have any propaganda.

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Post by Steve » 04 Aug 2003 01:43

Under the terms of the Munich agreement an international guarantee was given by France and Britain on Czechoslovakias`s future security. Article 1 stated "when the question of the Polish and Hungarian minorities in Czechoslovakia has been settled Germany and Italy will each give a similar guarantee to Czechoslovakia ". The Poles settled the issue of their minority with an ultimatum, the Hungarians demands after unsuccesful talks were decided by arbitration from Ribbentrop and Count Ciano. The German and Italian guarantees were never given.

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Post by David Thompson » 04 Aug 2003 02:51

Dan -- The province or piece of Czechoslovakia that Russia annexed was called Ruthenia (but not White Ruthenia).

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Post by michael mills » 04 Aug 2003 06:42

David Thompson wrote:

Dan -- The province or piece of Czechoslovakia that Russia annexed was called Ruthenia (but not White Ruthenia).


Yes, but not until AFTER the end of the war. That territory is now part of Ukraine, with the name Zakarpatskaia Ukraina = Transcarpathian Ukraine. The Ruthenians are a branch of the Ukrainian people.

Under the terms of the Munich Agreement, Ruthenia became one of the three autonomous units into which Czechoslovakia was divided, the other two being Czechia and Slovakia.

In fact, that was just forcing the Czech Government to fulfill the terms of the post-WW1 peace settlement that created Czechoslovakia, under which Ruthenia, to which the Czechs had absolutely no ethnic claim, was to be given autonomy. The Benes regime had never honoured that treaty obligation. So much for the democratic Czechs!

In March 1939, Hungary occupied and annexed Ruthenia, which had been part of the Hungarian kingdom for a thousand years until 1918. Ruthenia remained part of Hungary until the end of the war, when it was annexed by the Soviet Union.

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Post by Kunnar Kesküla » 04 Aug 2003 08:41

[
Oleg, it’s been just over a decade since the communists were toppled in your country (assuming that you are from one of the former Soviet bloc countries). It may be possible that you are obtaining your history from some of the corrupt sources that were used in the Soviet education system to educate the masses with the twisted Soviet version of events.
spre me you maybes, you have no idea what my sources, are nor do you know If they have any propaganda.[/quote]

So maybe you will say, what are your sources.

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 04 Aug 2003 08:56

depends on the subject. for this thread for quick refernce I use Soviet-Polish Wars Military-Political struggle 1918-1939 by Meltuhov. Published in 2001.

Ìåëüòþõîâ Ìèõàèë Èâàíîâè÷
Ñîâåòñêî-ïîëüñêèå âîéíû.
Âîåííî-ïîëèòè÷åñêîå ïðîòèâîñòîÿíèå 1918—1939 ãã. Ì.: Âå÷å, 2001.

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Post by michael mills » 04 Aug 2003 09:11

Oleg wrote:

Find me one military directive of Red Army High Command (and no propaganda statements doe not count ) that would use word “world revolution” or something like that.



In the 1939 book "Poland: Key to Europe", by the American economist Dr Raymond Leslie Buell, we find the following on page 82:

In July [1920] the Soviet General Tukhachevsky launched his offensive on the northern front with a proclamation stating: 'The destinies of the World Revolution will be settled in the West. Our way toward world-wide conflagration passes over the corpse of Poland'.


Buell gives as his source the book by Robert Machray, Poland, 1914-1931, page 148.

Tukhachevsky was obviously a military leader rather than a Bolshevik politician, but he used the term "World Revolution". It seems pretty conclusive that the attack on Poland was designed as the start of a general revolution in Europe. It failed.

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