Document related to the Polish POWs in USSR in 1940.

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michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 04 Aug 2003 09:21

Oleg wrote:

Purpose of Molotov visit was to establish what the hell Germany wants, since historically there were some demands brought forward by the aggressor, before attack ensued.


False. The purpose of the Molotov visit was to present Soviet demands for further westward expansion into Europe.

Molotov asked that the Soviet Union be allowed to invade Finland again, to set up bases in Bulgaria (ie bring Bulgaria under its control, thereby strangling Romania, Germany's only source of oil other than the Soviet Union), and to set up bases on the Bosphorus, thereby bringing the exit from the Black Sea under its control. All of these demands were of immense strategic importance, and it granted would have given the Soviet Union domination of Eastern Europe.

The above were the conditions that the Soviet Union set for joining in an alliance with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Germany had asked the Soviet Union to join that alliance, but suggested that the Soviet Union should expand southward, toward Iran and India, rather than further westward into Europe. The Soviet reply was that it wanted to expand into Turkey and Iran, but insisted on westward expansion as well.

Germany was determined to prevent any further westward expansion of the Soviet Union, beyond the Baltic States, Eastern Poland and Eastern Romania. At the November talks in Berlin, and in the subsequent letter from Stalin, the Soviet Union made it clear that it would insist on further westward expansion. It was after the receipt of the letter from Stalin, setting his terms for joining in an alliance with Germany, that Hitler made his final decision for a preventive attack on the Soviet Union.

Kunnar Kesküla
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Post by Kunnar Kesküla » 04 Aug 2003 09:26

oleg wrote:depends on the subject. for this thread for quick refernce I use Soviet-Polish Wars Military-Political struggle 1918-1939 by Meltuhov. Published in 2001.

Ìåëüòþõîâ Ìèõàèë Èâàíîâè÷
Ñîâåòñêî-ïîëüñêèå âîéíû.
Âîåííî-ïîëèòè÷åñêîå ïðîòèâîñòîÿíèå 1918—1939 ãã. Ì.: Âå÷å, 2001.


Thank's! I must say that i'm not reading this book, so i can't argue about that. But more i mean under sources this document. From where this com out.

Reigo
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Post by Reigo » 04 Aug 2003 10:38

Lenin to Stalin on 23rd July 1920:

"The situation in the Comintern is great. Zinovyev, Bukharin and also I think that it is needed immediately to foster revolution in Italy. My personal opinion is that for this it is needed to sovietize Hungary and maybe also Czhechia and Romania. It is needed to think over about this. Let us know about your opinion."


Source: Krasnov, V., Daines, V. "Neizvestnyi Trotski. Krasnyi Bonapart: Dokumenty. Mneniya. Razmyshleniya." Moskva, 2000. P 313.

Those who understand Estonian can read a little piece of work (done by me) about the Soviet-Polish War from here:
http://www.hot.ee/reigo1981/noukpoola.htm
(I have found later some mistakes, but I haven't corrected them in the online version - if anybody is interested in the corrected version send a PM for me and I will send it by email).

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 04 Aug 2003 20:14

oleg wrote:Find me one military directive of Red Army High Command (and no propaganda statements doe not count ) that would use word “world revolution” or something like that.


This question falls into the category of those such as 'Show me documentary proof that Hitler ordered the killing of the Jews'. No such documents have been found - but do you doubt that the elimination of the Jews by whatever means possible did not have Hitler's approval?

Regarding your other questions and disagreements with my position on this matter, Michael Mills has addressed them in a clear and concise manner. No further elaboration is necessary.

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Post by PolAntek » 04 Aug 2003 20:30

Kunnar Kesküla wrote:So maybe you will say, what are your sources.


My understanding of this period of history is from reading many sources on the subject over the years and have found the same general theme expressed consistently. I am not a historian and do not claim to know everything on the topic so I enjoy the TRF discourse both in support and against my position. I want only to know the truth.

Regards.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Aug 2003 00:40

michael mills wrote:Oleg wrote:

Purpose of Molotov visit was to establish what the hell Germany wants, since historically there were some demands brought forward by the aggressor, before attack ensued.


False. The purpose of the Molotov visit was to present Soviet demands for further westward expansion into Europe.

Molotov asked that the Soviet Union be allowed to invade Finland again, to set up bases in Bulgaria (ie bring Bulgaria under its control, thereby strangling Romania, Germany's only source of oil other than the Soviet Union), and to set up bases on the Bosphorus, thereby bringing the exit from the Black Sea under its control. All of these demands were of immense strategic importance, and it granted would have given the Soviet Union domination of Eastern Europe.

The above were the conditions that the Soviet Union set for joining in an alliance with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Germany had asked the Soviet Union to join that alliance, but suggested that the Soviet Union should expand southward, toward Iran and India, rather than further westward into Europe. The Soviet reply was that it wanted to expand into Turkey and Iran, but insisted on westward expansion as well.

Germany was determined to prevent any further westward expansion of the Soviet Union, beyond the Baltic States, Eastern Poland and Eastern Romania. At the November talks in Berlin, and in the subsequent letter from Stalin, the Soviet Union made it clear that it would insist on further westward expansion. It was after the receipt of the letter from Stalin, setting his terms for joining in an alliance with Germany, that Hitler made his final decision for a preventive attack on the Soviet Union.

well let's see what Molotov actuallu had to say on the subject.
Some directives for Berlin voyage.
November 9th 1940.
1.Purpose of the visit
a) to clarify actual German and other participants of Pact of 3 intentions, in regards to materialization of the “New Europe” and “The Great Eastern Asian Space” plans; the borders of “New Europe” and “The Great Eastern Asian Space” ; character of state structures for certain European states in the “ New Europe” and “The Great Eastern Asian Space”; timetables and stages for the realization of these plans, and ,at least, to find out what are the nearest of these plans are; perspectives for joining pact of 3 by other states; USSR place ins this plans – now and in the future.
document marked top secret and signed by Molotov. It is quite lengthy - I'll transle all of it when I'll have more time. However matter #1 puts the stress there it should be.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Aug 2003 01:02

PolAntek wrote:
oleg wrote:Find me one military directive of Red Army High Command (and no propaganda statements doe not count ) that would use word “world revolution” or something like that.


This question falls into the category of those such as 'Show me documentary proof that Hitler ordered the killing of the Jews'. No such documents have been found - but do you doubt that the elimination of the Jews by whatever means possible did not have Hitler's approval?

Regarding your other questions and disagreements with my position on this matter, Michael Mills has addressed them in a clear and concise manner. No further elaboration is necessary.

There are plenty of documents (unfortunately for you I guess) – for instance “Report by High Command to the Chief of Revolutionary Military Council about our strategic plans in regards to Curson note” from July 15 1920. “Directives of Soviet Government to the High Command in the light of decline of Curson Note” from July 17 1920. etc, etc –guess what none of them support your theory. The main reason for future adavnce into Poland -beyond Curson line, is purelly miliatry one - defeat of Polsih Armed forces, so that the later could not launch repetative agression. (which knowing Polish attitude between 1918 and 1920 is not that unreasonable)

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Post by Reigo » 05 Aug 2003 14:32

There are plenty of documents (unfortunately for you I guess) – for instance “Report by High Command to the Chief of Revolutionary Military Council about our strategic plans in regards to Curson note” from July 15 1920. “Directives of Soviet Government to the High Command in the light of decline of Curson Note” from July 17 1920. etc, etc –guess what none of them support your theory. The main reason for future adavnce into Poland -beyond Curson line, is purelly miliatry one - defeat of Polsih Armed forces, so that the later could not launch repetative agression. (which knowing Polish attitude between 1918 and 1920 is not that unreasonable)


The Soviet leadership had the aim to turn Poland into "Socialist Republic." Ever heard about the Polrevkom? The Lenin-Stalin message, which I posted, proves, that the dreams were even greater - revolution in Europe. The army had indeed orders to crush Polish armed forces and take Warssaw. You really think that after that the Soviets would have allowed the Polish pans to remain in power? :lol:

“Report by High Command to the Chief of Revolutionary Military Council about our strategic plans in regards to Curson note” from July 15 1920. “



I read this document right now. There it is said that if Poland remains isolated like it is at this moment, she will crushed by the Red Army. Nothing here proves your claims.

"Directives of Soviet Government to the High Command in the light of decline of Curson Note” from July 17 1920.


There it is said that the line of Curzon can be temporarily crossed if the situation demands. Like it is known the Soviets crossed this line without hesitation.

I suggest you take a look into: "Polsko-sovetskaya voina 1919 - 1920. Ranee ne opublikovannye dokumenty i materialy. Ch. 1 - 2- Moskva, 1994. There you see that on 16th July on the Plenum of the Central Comitte of the CP it was decided that the Curzon note will be not accepted and it is needed to continue attack to the West, using all forces available. (Pp 142-143 the protocol of this Plenum). It was mainly Lenins idea. Some of the other communists were not so hotheads.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 05 Aug 2003 18:07

Which Thesis that would be that “directly to the walls of Paris and London” was not the goal? Or that crossing the Curson line was done because of the military necessity? In both cases second paragraph “Directives of Soviet Government to the High Command in the light of our decline of Curson Note” from July 17 1920 states both the goals and the reasons. Point 4 of the same document forbids crossing of Romanian border and not to provoke them in anyway the same went for Finland and Lithuania -kind of modest of them if in fact “world revolution” was their goal – I mean on the one hand Paris and London being their target and on the other being afraid of Romania. Moreover can you enlighten me how the Bolsheviks were about to spread “Red Plague” having two months of supply worth as of July 15th 1920? As Socialist government for Poland – what they were suppose to do – live Pilsudskiy in power – the very guy who attacked them –it is like in 1945 after the capture of Berlin to allow Hitler stay in power.

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Post by michael mills » 06 Aug 2003 06:40

It is possible that the Red Army was preparing for a westward advance in September 1938.

"The Times" of 26 September 1938 carried a despatch from Riga, according to which 30 divisions of the Red Army, mostly on a war footing, were stationed in a radius of 200 miles along the Polish frontier between Kiev and White Russia.

According to that report, the Red Army force massed on the frontier consisted of 350,000 infantry, supported by 3,000 aircraft, 2,000 tanks and five cavalry corps.

350,000 men might not sound like much, but it was stronger than the whole peace-time Polish army, which was not mobilised at that time. Furthermore, the Soviet air and armoured support was far greater than anything Poland had.

The Riga despatch warned that the Soviet intention might be to create a Sudetenland-like situation, by claiming to liberate the White Russian and Ukrainian population in the Eastern Polish provinces.

The disposition of the Red Army forces between Kiev and Belarus suggests that its plan was to thrust through East Galicia and enter the territory of its ally, Czechoslovakia. Since Poland was at that time de facto ally of Germany, having joined it in the overthrow of the Benes regime and the annexation of territory, the Soviet Union may well have thought itself justified in attacking Poland.

The threat of a Red Army advance must have had an influence on the international negotiations to resolve the crisis over the Sudetenland. Any war between Germany and Czechoslovakia would obviously have brought the Red Army crashing through southern Poland and into Slovakia. Britain and France obviously wanted to avoid that eventuality, which might be one reason why they wanted to postpone war with Germany and reach a temporary settlement over Czechoslovakia.

The source for the above is Raymond Leslie Buell "Poland: Key to Europe", 1939, page 328.

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Post by michael mills » 06 Aug 2003 06:45

Oleg continues to ignore the proclamation issued by Tukhachevsky on launching the invasion of Poland in JUly 1920.

Here it is again:

'The destinies of the World Revolution will be settled in the West. Our way toward world-wide conflagration passes over the corpse of Poland'.


Does not sound like a localised military operation to remove a threat from Poland. Sounds more like an attempt, however foolish and misguided, to launch revolutionary war.

It may be that the Soviet Government took the opportunity of the Polish offensive of April 1920 into Ukraine to launch such a war.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 06 Aug 2003 07:03

Tuchevskiy was mere Front commander - nothing else, nothing more, he could proclaim whatever he wanted –maybe in order to raise spirit of his troops , but he was going to act on the directives given to him by Kamenenv -so I ignore it for a good reason.

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 06 Aug 2003 07:05

michael mills wrote:It is possible that the Red Army was preparing for a westward advance in September 1938.

"The Times" of 26 September 1938 carried a despatch from Riga, according to which 30 divisions of the Red Army, mostly on a war footing, were stationed in a radius of 200 miles along the Polish frontier between Kiev and White Russia.

According to that report, the Red Army force massed on the frontier consisted of 350,000 infantry, supported by 3,000 aircraft, 2,000 tanks and five cavalry corps.

350,000 men might not sound like much, but it was stronger than the whole peace-time Polish army, which was not mobilised at that time. Furthermore, the Soviet air and armoured support was far greater than anything Poland had.

The Riga despatch warned that the Soviet intention might be to create a Sudetenland-like situation, by claiming to liberate the White Russian and Ukrainian population in the Eastern Polish provinces.

The disposition of the Red Army forces between Kiev and Belarus suggests that its plan was to thrust through East Galicia and enter the territory of its ally, Czechoslovakia. Since Poland was at that time de facto ally of Germany, having joined it in the overthrow of the Benes regime and the annexation of territory, the Soviet Union may well have thought itself justified in attacking Poland.

The threat of a Red Army advance must have had an influence on the international negotiations to resolve the crisis over the Sudetenland. Any war between Germany and Czechoslovakia would obviously have brought the Red Army crashing through southern Poland and into Slovakia. Britain and France obviously wanted to avoid that eventuality, which might be one reason why they wanted to postpone war with Germany and reach a temporary settlement over Czechoslovakia.

The source for the above is Raymond Leslie Buell "Poland: Key to Europe", 1939, page 328.
yes it was -provided that France and GB will support the move -so? It is not a big secret.

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Post by Reigo » 06 Aug 2003 09:10

In both cases second paragraph “Directives of Soviet Government to the High Command in the light of our decline of Curson Note” from July 17 1920 states both the goals and the reasons.


Please give us those
goal and reasons
then. I have this document with me right now...

Point 4 of the same document forbids crossing of Romanian border and not to provoke them in anyway the same went for Finland and Lithuania -kind of modest of them if in fact “world revolution” was their goal – I mean on the one hand Paris and London being their target and on the other being afraid of Romania. Moreover can you enlighten me how the Bolsheviks were about to spread “Red Plague” having two months of supply worth as of July 15th 1920?


You have to ask this from comrade Lenin, not from me. Obviously the Soviets wanted to finish off Poland at first and then they would have looked what happens next. Of course the Bolos didn't want to declare war to the whole Europe at the same time. Important element in the Bolshevik plans was that the proletariat in Europe supports them and the capitalist system will fall apart like a card house - the Red Army only ignites the fire... Like I have proved comrade Lenin obviously had great hopes. I just repeat it for you (it seems you don't want to notice it):

Lenin to Stalin on 23rd July 1920:

"The situation in the Comintern is great. Zinovyev, Bukharin and also I think that it is needed immediately to foster revolution in Italy. My personal opinion is that for this it is needed to sovietize Hungary and maybe also Czhechia and Romania. It is needed to think over about this. Let us know about your opinion."


Source: Krasnov, V., Daines, V. "Neizvestnyi Trotski. Krasnyi Bonapart: Dokumenty. Mneniya. Razmyshleniya." Moskva, 2000. P 313.

Can you prove that this is falsification?

As Socialist government for Poland – what they were suppose to do – live Pilsudskiy in power – the very guy who attacked them –it is like in 1945 after the capture of Berlin to allow Hitler stay in power.


And after that also maybe socialist government for Romania...

I suggest you read also more books than only "Direktivy...".

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 06 Aug 2003 10:00

Please give us those


Under this circumstances, the government decided to decline, English proposal, as maneuver that is designed, on one hand - to cover form working masses of Britain, France and other countries the proportion of new offensive against us , and on the other hand – to play for time in order to restore forces of Poland an Wrangel for the renewal of their offensive
– here is your reason.

You have to ask this from comrade Lenin, not from me. Obviously the Soviets wanted to finish off Poland at first and then they would have looked what happens next. Of course the Bolos didn't want to declare war to the whole Europe at the same time. Important element in the Bolshevik plans was that the proletariat in Europe supports them and the capitalist system will fall apart like a card house - the Red Army only ignites the fire... Like I have proved comrade Lenin obviously had great hopes. I just repeat it ..
I don’t’ have to –it was a rhetoric question –it was impossible . Comrade Lenin would have to deal with military realities, that were presented to him by military command, which obviously not only did not count on “proletariat” but was rather afraid of any kind of military intervention on the part of such weak country as Romania. Considering the fact that according to it only had two months of resources worth (actually they ended even earlier than that), what Lenin meant by “great situation” shall remain a mystery, but it definitely has no connection to the RKKA situation. It could not plan any operations beyond the limited war with Poland - period. So Sovetizing Italy and such would have been done by Italian comrades, which is what essential.

And after that also maybe socialist government for Romania...
I suggest you read also more books than only "Direktivy...".
Maybe- shmaby. 2 month of resources –got it? Maybe you should read the directives instead of just heaving them in front of you.

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