Well, in this case what i ve quote before can be interesting debate point.Dan wrote:Luca, even those who believe in homicidal gas chambers there usually don't put the total figure above 5000.
Best Regards
Luca
Mauthausen gas chambers again
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michael mills
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David Thompson
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Michael -- You said: "Himmler is supposed to have prohibited any further gassing in November 1944. So that would rule out a gassing in April 1945."
(1) It's my understand that Himmler's order in Oct/Nov 1944 was not directed against the practice of killing by poison gas, but against further mass killings of Jews. Here is a chronology regarding the order, along with my sources:
Early October 1944
Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler met secretly near Vienna with Dr. Jean-Marie Musy, President of the Swiss Altbund, to discuss the fate of the remaining Jews held in Nazi concentration and death camps. At the meeting, Himmler declared that he was ready to release all Jews held in German custody and allow them to travel to Switzerland. Following the meeting, Himmler dictated a memorandum to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the chief of the RSHA, Sipo and SD, to spare the lives of all Jews being held in concentration camps. According to SS-Standartenfuehrer Kurt Becher, the message read: "I forbid any extermination of Jews and order that on the contrary care should be given to weak and sick persons." (Hoehne 642)
Mid-October 1944
Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler sent an order to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl, head of the SS Economic Administration of the concentration camps, and to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, head of the Reich Central Security Office, ordering them to stop killing the Jews. (Holo Levin 700)
October 30 1944
The "selection" of Jews to be killed in concentration camps was ordered stopped by Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler. (Holo Levin 700)
November 2-17 1944
Eight thousand Jews were gassed to death at Auschwitz-Birkenau before the guards received Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler's order to stop the executions. After inmates had cleaned up at the death camp, removing 18-inch deposits of human fat from the crematorium chimneys, Crematoriums II and III at Auschwitz were dismantled and the buildings blown up by the SS. (Holo Atlas 210; Hilberg 632)
November 26 1944
Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler telegraphed Kurt Becher: "The crematoria at Auschwitz are to be dismantled. The Jews working in the Reich are to get normal eastern workers' rations. In the absence of Jewish hospitals they may be treated with Aryan patients." (Holo Levin 700)
(2) chalutzim's post had this to say about the Apr 1945 gassings:
"Murders continued to take place in the gas chambers of the main camp until just before Mauthausen was liberated. During the last weeks, the camp administration tried feverishly to eliminate the sick, whose numbers kept increasing. Vratislav Busek, a Czech prisoner who was the sick-camp secretary in the Mauthausen base-camp sector, noted that between 21 and 25 April 1945, 1.411 sick prisoners were taken from the "sick-camp" to the gas chamber. The number of victims would have been still higher if the prisoners belonging to the camp staff had not succeeded in saving several hundred. In the final days, many Austrian antifascists who had been deported to Mauthausen were murdered in the gas chamber. The last gassing took place on 28 April. It was ordered for reasons quite different from the earlier ones: Eigruber indicated that "the Allies must not find in the Alpine provinces any elements who would be inclined to collaborate in reconstruction."
From this quote it is not at all clear that the prisoners who were gassed to death in Apr 1945 were Jews, in which case the gassings would not have been contrary to Himmler's original Oct/Nov 1944 order.
(3) In Feb 1945 Himmler issued a new order, which would have the effect of modifying his Oct/Nov 1944 order:
February 6 1945
The third transport of Hungarian Jews was released from Bergen-Belsen on the authority of Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler. The Jews arrived in Switzerland. Himmler was paid 5 million Swiss francs for the exchange by the President of Switzerland. The news of the release was published in Swiss newspapers and Adolf Hitler became furious, causing Himmler to believe that he might be shot. Himmler then ordered his subordinates "to let no camp inmate in the southern half of Germany fall into enemy hands alive." (Holo Levin 703)
(4) In addition to the above, Himmler's Oct/Nov 1944 order to stop killing Jews was modified by a Fuehrer-order in Apr 1945:
mid Apr 1945
Adolf Hitler gave strict orders regarding the evacuation of concentration camps, following the American capture of Buchenwald on April 11, 1945, which were later described by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Franz Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz:
"After Buchenwald had been occupied, it was reported to the Fuehrer that internees had armed themselves and were carrying out plunderings in the town of Weimar. This caused the Fuehrer to give the strictest order to Himmler to the effect that in the future no more camps were to fall into the hands of the enemy, and that no internees capable of marching would be left behind in any camp." (Tyranny on Trial 346)
Hoess described Himmler's reaction to this order in regard to the disposition of prisoners at KL Sachsenhausen in mid-Apr 1945:
April 15 1945
The SS began evacuating the inmates of Sachsenhausen concentration camp, following an order from Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler the previous evening. The situation was described by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Franz Hoess:
"The Gestapo chief, Gruppenfuehrer [Heinrich] Mueller, called me in the evening and told me that the Reichsfuehrer [Heinrich Himmler] had ordered that the camp at Sachsenhausen was to be evacuated at once. I pointed out to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller what that would mean. Sachsenhausen could no longer fall back on any other camp except perhaps on a few labor camps attached to the armament works that were almost filled up anyway. Most of the internees would have to be sheltered in the woods somewhere. This would mean countless thousands of deaths and, above all, it would be impossible to feed these masses of people. He promised me that he would again discuss these measures with the Reichsfuehrer. He called me back and told me that the Reichsfuehrer had refused and was demanding that the commanders carry out his orders immediately. (Tyranny on Trial 346)
For these reasons, I don't think that Himmler's order in Oct/Nov 1944 to stop killing Jews would rule out a gassing of political prisoners or sick inmates at KL Mauthausen in Apr 1945, particularly given Himmler's Feb 1945 order "to let no camp inmate in the southern half of Germany fall into enemy hands alive."
(1) It's my understand that Himmler's order in Oct/Nov 1944 was not directed against the practice of killing by poison gas, but against further mass killings of Jews. Here is a chronology regarding the order, along with my sources:
Early October 1944
Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler met secretly near Vienna with Dr. Jean-Marie Musy, President of the Swiss Altbund, to discuss the fate of the remaining Jews held in Nazi concentration and death camps. At the meeting, Himmler declared that he was ready to release all Jews held in German custody and allow them to travel to Switzerland. Following the meeting, Himmler dictated a memorandum to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the chief of the RSHA, Sipo and SD, to spare the lives of all Jews being held in concentration camps. According to SS-Standartenfuehrer Kurt Becher, the message read: "I forbid any extermination of Jews and order that on the contrary care should be given to weak and sick persons." (Hoehne 642)
Mid-October 1944
Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler sent an order to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl, head of the SS Economic Administration of the concentration camps, and to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, head of the Reich Central Security Office, ordering them to stop killing the Jews. (Holo Levin 700)
October 30 1944
The "selection" of Jews to be killed in concentration camps was ordered stopped by Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler. (Holo Levin 700)
November 2-17 1944
Eight thousand Jews were gassed to death at Auschwitz-Birkenau before the guards received Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler's order to stop the executions. After inmates had cleaned up at the death camp, removing 18-inch deposits of human fat from the crematorium chimneys, Crematoriums II and III at Auschwitz were dismantled and the buildings blown up by the SS. (Holo Atlas 210; Hilberg 632)
November 26 1944
Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler telegraphed Kurt Becher: "The crematoria at Auschwitz are to be dismantled. The Jews working in the Reich are to get normal eastern workers' rations. In the absence of Jewish hospitals they may be treated with Aryan patients." (Holo Levin 700)
(2) chalutzim's post had this to say about the Apr 1945 gassings:
"Murders continued to take place in the gas chambers of the main camp until just before Mauthausen was liberated. During the last weeks, the camp administration tried feverishly to eliminate the sick, whose numbers kept increasing. Vratislav Busek, a Czech prisoner who was the sick-camp secretary in the Mauthausen base-camp sector, noted that between 21 and 25 April 1945, 1.411 sick prisoners were taken from the "sick-camp" to the gas chamber. The number of victims would have been still higher if the prisoners belonging to the camp staff had not succeeded in saving several hundred. In the final days, many Austrian antifascists who had been deported to Mauthausen were murdered in the gas chamber. The last gassing took place on 28 April. It was ordered for reasons quite different from the earlier ones: Eigruber indicated that "the Allies must not find in the Alpine provinces any elements who would be inclined to collaborate in reconstruction."
From this quote it is not at all clear that the prisoners who were gassed to death in Apr 1945 were Jews, in which case the gassings would not have been contrary to Himmler's original Oct/Nov 1944 order.
(3) In Feb 1945 Himmler issued a new order, which would have the effect of modifying his Oct/Nov 1944 order:
February 6 1945
The third transport of Hungarian Jews was released from Bergen-Belsen on the authority of Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler. The Jews arrived in Switzerland. Himmler was paid 5 million Swiss francs for the exchange by the President of Switzerland. The news of the release was published in Swiss newspapers and Adolf Hitler became furious, causing Himmler to believe that he might be shot. Himmler then ordered his subordinates "to let no camp inmate in the southern half of Germany fall into enemy hands alive." (Holo Levin 703)
(4) In addition to the above, Himmler's Oct/Nov 1944 order to stop killing Jews was modified by a Fuehrer-order in Apr 1945:
mid Apr 1945
Adolf Hitler gave strict orders regarding the evacuation of concentration camps, following the American capture of Buchenwald on April 11, 1945, which were later described by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Franz Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz:
"After Buchenwald had been occupied, it was reported to the Fuehrer that internees had armed themselves and were carrying out plunderings in the town of Weimar. This caused the Fuehrer to give the strictest order to Himmler to the effect that in the future no more camps were to fall into the hands of the enemy, and that no internees capable of marching would be left behind in any camp." (Tyranny on Trial 346)
Hoess described Himmler's reaction to this order in regard to the disposition of prisoners at KL Sachsenhausen in mid-Apr 1945:
April 15 1945
The SS began evacuating the inmates of Sachsenhausen concentration camp, following an order from Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler the previous evening. The situation was described by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Franz Hoess:
"The Gestapo chief, Gruppenfuehrer [Heinrich] Mueller, called me in the evening and told me that the Reichsfuehrer [Heinrich Himmler] had ordered that the camp at Sachsenhausen was to be evacuated at once. I pointed out to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller what that would mean. Sachsenhausen could no longer fall back on any other camp except perhaps on a few labor camps attached to the armament works that were almost filled up anyway. Most of the internees would have to be sheltered in the woods somewhere. This would mean countless thousands of deaths and, above all, it would be impossible to feed these masses of people. He promised me that he would again discuss these measures with the Reichsfuehrer. He called me back and told me that the Reichsfuehrer had refused and was demanding that the commanders carry out his orders immediately. (Tyranny on Trial 346)
For these reasons, I don't think that Himmler's order in Oct/Nov 1944 to stop killing Jews would rule out a gassing of political prisoners or sick inmates at KL Mauthausen in Apr 1945, particularly given Himmler's Feb 1945 order "to let no camp inmate in the southern half of Germany fall into enemy hands alive."
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michael mills
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The reason why Himmler ordered the cessation of extermination in October/November 1944 was that he was trying to negotiate with the Western Allies, and wanted to make a gesture toward them.
He never ceased trying to establish contacts, and continued to do so right up to the end of the war via Switzerland and Sweden. That is why he was eventually sacked by Hitler, just before the end. Even if he tried to placate Hitler, it seems to me unlikely that he would have instituted a mass-killing policy in the last month of the war, which would have gone against what he was trying to achieve as regards a negotiated end to the war.
Furthermore, the claim that Himmler had ordered all concentration camp prisoners to be killed (or meant it seriously) is belied by his actions in relation to the surrender of Bergen-Belsen camp to the British on 15 April 1945, ie after capture of Buchenwald by the US Army. When Himmler was told that typhus had broken out in the camp, he ordered that it be handed over to the British under a truce. That is why Kramer hung around to make a formal handover, rather than fleeing, which would have been the logical thing to do.
It may that by April Mauthausen was no longer under Himmler's control, but that seems unlikely. Also, by April Hitler was trapped in Berlin, and in no position to control what was happening in the concentration camps, no matter how many orders he gave.
He never ceased trying to establish contacts, and continued to do so right up to the end of the war via Switzerland and Sweden. That is why he was eventually sacked by Hitler, just before the end. Even if he tried to placate Hitler, it seems to me unlikely that he would have instituted a mass-killing policy in the last month of the war, which would have gone against what he was trying to achieve as regards a negotiated end to the war.
Furthermore, the claim that Himmler had ordered all concentration camp prisoners to be killed (or meant it seriously) is belied by his actions in relation to the surrender of Bergen-Belsen camp to the British on 15 April 1945, ie after capture of Buchenwald by the US Army. When Himmler was told that typhus had broken out in the camp, he ordered that it be handed over to the British under a truce. That is why Kramer hung around to make a formal handover, rather than fleeing, which would have been the logical thing to do.
It may that by April Mauthausen was no longer under Himmler's control, but that seems unlikely. Also, by April Hitler was trapped in Berlin, and in no position to control what was happening in the concentration camps, no matter how many orders he gave.
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Guilherme.B.Dias
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michael mills
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Scott Smith
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Ziereis also confessed to making handbags out of human skin and using it to bind books with. In any case, a coworker went on vacation to Austria last July and visited Mauthausen. She claimed that 500 thousand were killed there and saw the gaschambers and ovens and showed pictures of the "parachute cliff." I didn't quiz her on any details but it seems that museums are at a loss if they don't put gaschambers in their camps. She said that the place was a bit run-down and the Austrians weren't too interested in funding it and would probably rather just forget. Of course, we will likely never see elaborate museums at camps in Soviet Siberia, because what tourists would want to go there?
Last edited by Scott Smith on 09 Aug 2003, 15:50, edited 1 time in total.
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David Thompson
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Scott -- You said: "Ziereis also confessed to making handbags out of human skin and using it to bind books with."
You are mistaken. Ziereis did not confess to this barbarous act. Instead, Ziereis accused two other men, Chemielskwy and Seidler at Gusen sub-camp, of having bound books with human skin. See Ziereis' confession at "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" vol. VI, pp. 791, reproduced at http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14129
You are mistaken. Ziereis did not confess to this barbarous act. Instead, Ziereis accused two other men, Chemielskwy and Seidler at Gusen sub-camp, of having bound books with human skin. See Ziereis' confession at "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" vol. VI, pp. 791, reproduced at http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14129
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Scott Smith
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I stand corrected. He confessed that the Germans made handbags and bound books with human skin by accusing two other Germans.David Thompson wrote:Scott -- You said: "Ziereis also confessed to making handbags out of human skin and using it to bind books with."
You are mistaken. Ziereis did not confess to this barbarous act. Instead, Ziereis accused two other men, Chemielskwy and Seidler at Gusen sub-camp, of having bound books with human skin. See Ziereis' confession at "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" vol. VI, pp. 791, reproduced at http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14129
Hi Scotty boy. We have a saying here down under. "You were all over that one like a Sea Gull (marine bird) on a hot chip (fries).Scott Smith wrote:I stand corrected. He confessed that the Germans made handbags and bound books with human skin by accusing two other Germans.David Thompson wrote:Scott -- You said: "Ziereis also confessed to making handbags out of human skin and using it to bind books with."
You are mistaken. Ziereis did not confess to this barbarous act. Instead, Ziereis accused two other men, Chemielskwy and Seidler at Gusen sub-camp, of having bound books with human skin. See Ziereis' confession at "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" vol. VI, pp. 791, reproduced at http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14129
Re: Mauthausen gas chambers again
Martin Roth (SS) , wikipedia
(born 11 August 1914, the date of death unknown) - was a Nazi, a member of the crew of the German concentration camp Mauthausen-Gusen and SS Hauptscharführer.
From May 1940 to April 1945 he was head of the crematorium in the main camp of Mauthausen. From May 1940 to April 1945 he was head of the crematorium in the main camp of Mauthausen. From March 1942 he also participated in mass murders of prisoners with Zyklon B gas chambers in the camp, resulting in almost 1,700 killed prisoners and Soviet prisoners of war. Since March 1942 Also he participated in Mass Murders of Prisoners with Zyklon B gas chambers in the camp, with the result That Nearly Killed 1.700 Prisoners and Prisoners of the Soviet. Roth also attended executions by firing squad and hanging. July 24, 1970 has been sentenced for these crimes to the penalty of seven years imprisonment by a West German court in Hagen. Also Attended Executions by firing squad and hanging. 24 July 1970 was of These crimes Convicted, Sentenced to seven years imprisonment by a West German court in Hagen.
http://www.elholocausto.net/imagenes/ca ... hausen.JPG
photo
(born 11 August 1914, the date of death unknown) - was a Nazi, a member of the crew of the German concentration camp Mauthausen-Gusen and SS Hauptscharführer.
From May 1940 to April 1945 he was head of the crematorium in the main camp of Mauthausen. From May 1940 to April 1945 he was head of the crematorium in the main camp of Mauthausen. From March 1942 he also participated in mass murders of prisoners with Zyklon B gas chambers in the camp, resulting in almost 1,700 killed prisoners and Soviet prisoners of war. Since March 1942 Also he participated in Mass Murders of Prisoners with Zyklon B gas chambers in the camp, with the result That Nearly Killed 1.700 Prisoners and Prisoners of the Soviet. Roth also attended executions by firing squad and hanging. July 24, 1970 has been sentenced for these crimes to the penalty of seven years imprisonment by a West German court in Hagen. Also Attended Executions by firing squad and hanging. 24 July 1970 was of These crimes Convicted, Sentenced to seven years imprisonment by a West German court in Hagen.
http://www.elholocausto.net/imagenes/ca ... hausen.JPG
photo