Son of Majdanek revisited

[Luca]

Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS

In fact Maïdaneck existed under many names, except Vernichtùngslager.

But it was one, as you can rapidly see when you refer to the places, towns and shtetles from where the deportees were sent, for theit last travel.

...."Exchanges of prisoners between the various KZs was normally part of the concentration camp system.This also applied to KZ-Lublin.A great number of transports with thousands of prisoners arrived at, and departed from, the camp.Additionally, the camp also functioned as ALL (Aufflangslager = assembly camp) and DL (Durchgangslager = transit camp),mainly for jews from the ghettos in Poland and the other "Ostgebiete". These prisoners were then transported on to VL (Vernichtungslager = extermination camp) such as Auschwitz and Treblinka and others. Approximately 46.000 prisoners left KZ-Lublin on such transports."....
Luca

[Luca]

Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS

Maïdanek was a killing place.

..."The conditions for the prisoners in this camp were terrible and among the worst of all the KZ. Hard work, little or no food, disease and the unhygienic environment accounted for the death of about 160.000. Additionally came the killings by shooting and gassing e.g. as part of "Aktion Erntefest" (Action Harvest Festival). This entailed the killing of 43.000 Jews in KZ-Lublin and other nearby camps on November 1, 1943.
In February 1943 the PRK (Polish Red Cross) started negotiations with Camp Commandant Florstedt regarding food supplies for 3.000 - 4.000 specifically selected Polish prisoners. An agreement was made, and weekly packages were organised and delivered to the camp through Polnische Hilfskomitee. From February to April 1944 the arrangement also included daily soup portions for 4.000 such prisoners, as well as clothes and personal effects. Between March 1943 and May 1944 more than 100.000 pakages were delivered to the camp.
The exact number of prisoners that perished in KZ-Lublin and its subcamps can not be determined, but is estimated at between 250.000 and 360.000. Between January and September 1943 alone, approximately 90.000 died. Additionally that year were the 43.000 killed under "Aktion Erntefest", and those that died during the final months. Of this total more than 100.000 Poles, 80.000 Jews of different nationalities, 50.000 Soviet citizens and 20.000 from other countries did not survive their imprisonment."......
Luca

[Luca]

Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS

The technic used can be discussed, but the fact that people were sent there to be killed is proven.

...."KZ-Lublin was one of the eastern most camps in the KZ system. In mid May 1944 the Red Army was only 150 km away. At that time the German Military Command published a plan for evacuating the district, and on March 19 - 1944 the preparation for evacuation of KZ-Lublin began. The Polish Red Cross appealed to the camp commandant for permission to take the ill prisoners, but only 40 were transferred. At this time, however, 200 hostages were released, and 3.600 ill prisoners left on group transports.
The official evacuation started on April 1 - 1944 by sending 2.000 men and woman to Auschwitz. Then, between April 5 and 19, ten transports including a total of 12.000 prisoners were sent to other KZs : Natzweiler, Gross-Rosen, Bergen-Belsen, Ravensbruck and Plaszow.By that time 80% of the prisoners in the main camp had been evacuated. Those remaining were mostly 1.500 invalids and Soviet POWs.
In mid June, labor camp Budzyn was evacuated to the main camp, and the period lasting until July 22 - 1944 was characterised by the large number of civilians from the front who took refuge in the camp. The dismantling of the camp barracks and other buildings began, and the main camp and 200 from DAW-Linden Str. were evacuated. On the night between July 22 and 23 - 1944 the camp was liberated by troops from the 8th Tank Corps of the Red Army. At that time there were only 500 Soviet POWs remaining in the camp.".....
Luca

[alsaco]

Precious alsaco,
i m ,as usually , very drunk, but sincerly, for can i remember, was me that post information concern the original proyect concern the camp in subject.

So, you do not produce any proof of your affirmation, that the KZ was established to lodge manpower for a dreamed, then ghostly " german new Lublin" to settle nazi immigrants.

The three sources produced by the moderator do establish that this KZ finally did serve to kill numerous people, mainly Poles.

I suppose this will not change your opinion.

[Luca]

Precious alsaco,
i m ,as usually , very drunk, but sincerly, for can i remember, was me that post information concern the original proyect concern the camp in subject.

So, you do not produce any proof of your affirmation, that the KZ was established to lodge manpower for a dreamed, then ghostly " german new Lublin" to settle nazi immigrants.

The three sources produced by the moderator do establish that this KZ finally did serve to kill numerous people, mainly Poles.

I suppose this will not change your opinion.

Very funny,
i never show here my opinion concern the topic.
In any case im smoking a sigarette and drinking some water cause the strange hot time in my mountains here.
I will reply to the last part of Your old message in the next short time.
Luca

[michael mills]

David Thompson wrote:

You asked for proof of a functioning gas chamber at Majdanek. I showed you that two West German courts (one at Duesseldorf and one at Bielefeld) have convicted persons of the execution of prisoners by gassing at Majdanek. Now you want the "arguments and proofs or the transcripts of the trial."

I do not think that the above is a totally accurate representation of what the very brief summaries in the series "Justiz und Naziverbrechen" actually show.

Those summaries list the persons accused, the court decision in respect of each (acquittal or a sentence), and finally the crimes of which those persons were accused (Verfahrensgegenstand = the subject of the proceedings).

The summaries do not state exactly which of the crimes each person was accused of (usually there are several different crimes listed), and more importantly, they do not state exactly which of the listed crimes they were found guilty of. Thus, the fact that a sentence is recorded against a person does not necessarily mean that that person was found guilty of all of the alleged offences listed in the "Verfahrensgegenstand". It could well be that no-one was found guilty of a particular allegation made in the list, and that the guilty verdicts referred to other allegations.

For that reason, I think that Lucius is justified in his wish to see more detail of the sentences, and the supporting evidence. Usually the court decision summarises the evidence, and gives reasons for accepting or rejecting it.

The "Justiz und Naziverbrechen" site does give full details of a selection of cases, eg the trials of Dr Gerhard Peters of DEGESCH for the supply of Zyklon-B, and when you read them, you realise how insufficent the bare facts given in the summaries are.

There was only one trial where there was only one allegation listed in the Verfahrensgegenstand, and that was the supply of Zyklon-B for the purposes of gassing. Accordingly, we know that the accused was found guilty of that specific allegation. But from the summary we cannot tell whether the purpose of gassing was actually proved irrefutably, or whether it was simply proved that the accused person supplied the Zyklon-B and the homicidal gassing was simply presumed. Homicidal gassing was by no means the only reason for supplying Zyklon-B to a large camp like Lublin; it could just as well be for the normal disinfestation purpose. We would need to look at the evidence.

[Lucius Felix Silla]

Precious alsaco,
i m ,as usually , very drunk, but sincerly, for can i remember, was me that post information concern the original proyect concern the camp in subject.

So, you do not produce any proof of your affirmation, that the KZ was established to lodge manpower for a dreamed, then ghostly " german new Lublin" to settle nazi immigrants.

The three sources produced by the moderator do establish that this KZ finally did serve to kill numerous people, mainly Poles.

I suppose this will not change your opinion.

I never have write these words quoted from someone other opinionist. So i think that Mr. Alsaco must rectify this uncorrect statement.

Best Regards
LFS

[Lucius Felix Silla]

David Thompson wrote:

You asked for proof of a functioning gas chamber at Majdanek. I showed you that two West German courts (one at Duesseldorf and one at Bielefeld) have convicted persons of the execution of prisoners by gassing at Majdanek. Now you want the "arguments and proofs or the transcripts of the trial."

I do not think that the above is a totally accurate representation of what the very brief summaries in the series "Justiz und Naziverbrechen" actually show.

Those summaries list the persons accused, the court decision in respect of each (acquittal or a sentence), and finally the crimes of which those persons were accused (Verfahrensgegenstand = the subject of the proceedings).

The summaries do not state exactly which of the crimes each person was accused of (usually there are several different crimes listed), and more importantly, they do not state exactly which of the listed crimes they were found guilty of. Thus, the fact that a sentence is recorded against a person does not necessarily mean that that person was found guilty of all of the alleged offences listed in the "Verfahrensgegenstand". It could well be that no-one was found guilty of a particular allegation made in the list, and that the guilty verdicts referred to other allegations.

For that reason, I think that Lucius is justified in his wish to see more detail of the sentences, and the supporting evidence. Usually the court decision summarises the evidence, and gives reasons for accepting or rejecting it.

The "Justiz und Naziverbrechen" site does give full details of a selection of cases, eg the trials of Dr Gerhard Peters of DEGESCH for the supply of Zyklon-B, and when you read them, you realise how insufficent the bare facts given in the summaries are.

There was only one trial where there was only one allegation listed in the Verfahrensgegenstand, and that was the supply of Zyklon-B for the purposes of gassing. Accordingly, we know that the accused was found guilty of that specific allegation. But from the summary we cannot tell whether the purpose of gassing was actually proved irrefutably, or whether it was simply proved that the accused person supplied the Zyklon-B and the homicidal gassing was simply presumed. Homicidal gassing was by no means the only reason for supplying Zyklon-B to a large camp like Lublin; it could just as well be for the normal disinfestation purpose. We would
need to look at the evidence.

Exactly, Mr. Michael Mills. I'm sorry that in next three weeks i can't partecipate to this discussion (holliday!!!) but i promise for September an in deep analysis of some facts as the famous Aktion Erntefest and others aspects of Majdanek.

Best regards
LFS

[Luca]

Dear Mr. Wulpe,

This is not a game.
Here everyone try to post informations, suggestions, documents and also other material.
After, the readers are free to judge the quality of informations posted.

Best regards
LFS

But you mention a project to build up in Lublin a new town for Germans. It ay be interesting to know the source of this information. I have not found any mention of this plan in any history of the town or in reports on the General Government.
Thank you for your help in this field of research.

...."In the plan for Germany's attack on the Soviet-Union the City of Lublin, the most eastern of the large cities in Generalgouvernament, was foreseen as a supply centre for the administration of the new "Ostgebiete". A new township for German inhabitants was part of these plans, which also included a centre for up to 60.000 SS-personnel, a number considered necessary for servicing these new territories.
The creation of this new township would require a great number of workers; prisoners in concentration camps and other internees would be the main source. Himmler visited Lublin on June 20-21 - 1941, just days before the attak on the Soviet-Union, and gave the order for building a camp for 25.000 - 50.000 prisoners in the district of Lublin.
Initially the camp was named "Das Konzentrationlager der Waffen-SS Lublin", and Himmler transferred the previous camp commandant of KZ-Buchenwald, Karl Otto Koch, to be in charge of building the camp.
The formal order to start the construction was given on September 22 - 1941. At that time the attak on the Soviet Union had gone on for some months, and on October 1 - 1941 a new order came for increasing the camp capacity to 50.000 POWs. The same month the first 2.000 Soviet POWs arrived to take part in the construction, and already in mid November 1941 the camp could house up to 10.000 inmates.
By the time 325.000 Red Army soldiers had been captured as POWs and imprisoned in Stalags and other German POW camps under the control of the Wehrmacht. Himmler, i.e. the SS, wanted to take charge of them and their labor effort, and agreed with Werhmacht Oberbefehlshaber General Walter v. Brauchitsch to a transfer of these camps to come under SS control.
On November 1 - 1941 an order was given for an increase of the camp size to 125.000 prisoners and on December 8 - 1941 to 150.000.Later, Himmler decided that Kriegsgefangenlager Lublin should also serve as a Konzentrationlager for political prisoners. From November 1941 to 1943 the official name for the camp was "Kriegsgefangenlager der Waffen-SS Lublin, and after that "Konzentrationlager der Waffen-SS Lublin."...
Luca

[David Thompson]

Michael -- Lucius may be justified in his wish to see more detail of the sentences, and the supporting evidence. He is not justified in expecting other posters to provide it.

[michael mills]

David Thompson:

Michael -- Lucius may be justified in his wish to see more detail of the sentences, and the supporting evidence. He is not justified in expecting other posters to provide it.

Fair enough.

There is actually a printed version of "Justiz und NS-Verbrechen", several volumes in fact. From what I have read about them, they give the full judgment for each of the cases listed.

The summaries on the website are just the "bare bones" version. In some cases, the website gives the full detail as appears in the printed version, eg the Gerhard Peters case.

There is a full set of the printed volumes in the National Library of Australia, but I have not consulted them.

Perhaps Lucius would be able to find a set in a library somewhere. (But I note that the volumes containing the cases cited by David are still in prpeparation, so we will just have to wait).