German soldier's guilt-filled diary

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Whisper
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#31

Post by Whisper » 22 Aug 2003, 16:40

CHRISCHA wrote: BTW, I think Oleg is making a fair point that although both armies fought savagely, neither one was free of commiting war crimes. I think we on this forum tend to imediately jump to the defence of the Third Reich, which is natural because it is our intrest and we hear so much nonsense about it.
Im not trying to defend the actions or the crimes which were commited by the german army, but it makes me angry that some people are trying to justify warcrimes ,of like in this case russia, by saying german soldiers did first, Germany started the war and so on. In my eyes it makes no difference who did what first. I cant understand how people can justify to answer murder with murder, and rape with rape. Who cares who did whatever first, thats going to make it better in any way. Soldiers that raped and murdered innocent deserve death, but not before they were tried, and their guilt has been proofen. But only the kind of uniform they are wearing, or someones nationality is no evidence in any way.

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Dennis

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Beppo Schmidt
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#32

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 22 Aug 2003, 19:17

Why do so many people in Germany get uncomfortable when it actually starts to acknowledge the horrible bombings of its cities, and the rapes of German women? A lot of Germans act like the German people aren't allowed to discuss their own suffering because their country started the war. No matter who started it, EVERYONE has the right to talk about their own sufferings, and everyone has the right to mourn their war dead, the Germans just as much as anyone else. It's not "minimalizing" German war crimes to admit that there were crimes against the Germans as well. The German children who were burned and crushed to death in Dresden did not start the war.


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#33

Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 22 Aug 2003, 19:44

oleg wrote:
Weiss Wurst wrote:Surely, though, even though this may be form the diary of a sociopathic soldier, he was still, not the norm in the army.
I wonder if you would write something like that if that happened to be a diary of a Soviet soldier.
The Soviet political environment in itself was at least as sociopathic as Reese himself.

~The Witch King of Angmar

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#34

Post by White Phosphorus » 22 Aug 2003, 22:20

Excessive Soviet civilian deaths 17 million due to German occupation.
Excessive German civilian deaths due to Soviet occupation 2 million.

Soviet army was 3 times bigger, => wermacht was 8.5*3 = 25.5 times more savage.

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#35

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Aug 2003, 01:08

White Phosphorus wrote:Excessive Soviet civilian deaths 17 million due to German occupation.
Excessive German civilian deaths due to Soviet occupation 2 million.

Soviet army was 3 times bigger, => wermacht was 8.5*3 = 25.5 times more savage.
Nonsense. The Soviets had prepared their war-economy from 1928 with Stalin's Socialism-In-One-Country, an industrial and armaments expansion program that "took no prisoners." It is extremely teleological to say that shipping people off to labor camps to build the industrial infrastructure to fight Germany later in WWII was therefore the fault of future German savagery. Stalin put his own people in the meat grinder before and during the war. On average, it took four Soviet soldiers to fight one German to a standstill so the Germans were doing something right. If anything, the Germans were not savage enough because they weren't able to inflict enough damage on the Soviet beast to enable them to win the war. The Germans also inflicted more casualties to the Western Allies in both World Wars than they took, partly because they were mostly on the defensive and a prepared defense has an effective advantage. Overall the Germans were much better led. But the Western Front is not at all comparable to the destruction of the Eastern Front on scale alone. Certainly we cannot pigeonhole it as a "Bourgeois war." The "excessive civilian deaths" were due to fighting such a scorched-earth war not the German occupation. Besides, the 2 million German civilian deaths were a result of the brutal expulsion of Germans to achieve ethnic purity in the national borders that were drawn after the war by the victorious Allies at Potsdam. This, however, had nothing to do with fighting the war but waging the Allied peace.
:)

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#36

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 Aug 2003, 02:47

It is extremely teleological to say that shipping people off to labor camps to build the industrial infrastructure to fight Germany later in WWII was therefore the fault of future German savagery.
what it has to do with anything? the number above is for 1941 to 1945 period. That said number of people who died in GULAG between 1934 and 1953, is 1,053,829.
On average, it took four Soviet soldiers to fight one German to a standstill so the Germans were doing something right.
no it took that many to beat the hell out of Germans. To hold them off usually 1 to 1 ratio was sufficient.
If anything, the Germans were not savage enough because they weren't able to inflict enough damage on the Soviet beast to enable them to win the war.
we are not talking about military losses we are talking about losses among civil population Scott.
Overall the Germans were much better led.
– very arguable – to put it mildly –strategically Germans lost the war to Soviets in 1941, whatever tactical advantage they might have occasionally was negated was negated by strategic blunders.
The "excessive civilian deaths" were due to fighting such a scorched-earth war not the German occupation.
Oh I assume you have something to back it up? Striping population bare on the occupied territories had nothing to do with it? How about forced laborers?

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#37

Post by Galicia » 23 Aug 2003, 04:27

Scott Smith wrote: The "excessive civilian deaths" were due to fighting such a scorched-earth war not the German occupation.
Hardly. More like the Germans took everything. Including the people! :lol: They found the occupied territories quite useful and full of lovely Germanic items:
SS-Oberstrumfuehrer Ferster wrote: November 10, 1942
Order No. 4
Expropriate Everything of Value

Co. 4 in which I was employed seized in Kiev the library of the medical research institute. All equipment, scientific staff, documentation and books were shipped out to Germany.

We appropriated rich trophies in the library of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences which possessed singular manuscripts of Persian, Abyssinian and Chinese writings, Russian and Ukrainian chronicles, incunabula by the first printer Ivan Fedorov, and rare editions of Shevchenko, Mickiewicz, Ivan Franko.

Expropriated and sent to Berlin were many exhibits from Kiev's Museums of Ukrainian Art, Russian Art, Western and Oriental Art and the Taras Shevchenko Museum.

As soon as the troops seize a big city, there arrive in their wake team leaders with all kinds of specialists to scan museums, art galleries, exhibitions, cultural and art institutions, evaluate their state and expropriate everything of value.
You can find it in, "History Teaches a Lesson," pg. 76
Last edited by Galicia on 23 Aug 2003, 04:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Galicia
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#38

Post by Galicia » 23 Aug 2003, 04:27

Double Post, sorry.

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Deterance
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#39

Post by Deterance » 23 Aug 2003, 05:57

tonyh wrote:

Out of all accounts that I've read and from the German Veterans that I've talked to, ALL of them count the Russian soldier as the toughest fighter.

He expressed that he thought that without a doubt the Russian soldier was the hardest the German's faced, bar none.
Tony
They had to be tough. They were fighting for the very survival of their people as a civilization. The NAZIS planned total destruction of their culture and total domination of their people.

The level of German atrocities was VERY high and incited by governmental policies which not only tolerated, but encouraged the atrocities of soldiers that exist in all armies.

As point of how far things can go down hill quickly....I read a report in Soldier of Fortune that stated that some members of a British Unit forced Iraqi prisoners to perform homosexual acts and then photographed them. (not smart)

War produces stress, anger and ironicaly freedom that leads to these actions. They cant be avoided... they will happen. But they cant be excused either. The scale, however, can be greatly reduced by good leadership.

That is something that the German leadership did not even attempt to do, but rather, they encouraged atrocities big and small.

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#40

Post by David Thompson » 23 Aug 2003, 06:12

Deterance -- That story about British behavior toward Iraqi POWs is disgusting. I hope it isn't true. If it is, I hope that the members of their court-martial board will treat their crime according to its nature. What a shameful, dispicable disgrace.

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#41

Post by Deterance » 23 Aug 2003, 06:23

David Thompson wrote:Deterance -- That story about British behavior toward Iraqi POWs is disgusting. I hope it isn't true. If it is, I hope that the members of their court-martial board will treat their crime according to its nature. What a shameful, dispicable disgrace.
I agree David,

In fairness to the British military though, although the pictures were discovered when a soldier dropped off film at a commercial development lab in England....

The ones forcing the POWs to perform homosexual sex acts COULD have been angry Shia guides, interpeters, milita members etc. and the victims Baath party members.

Unfortunatly incidents like this in war are both unavoidable and unexcusable. All cultures and all armies experience this difficulty.

Some to a vastly different scale though.

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#42

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Aug 2003, 08:45

Galicia wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: The "excessive civilian deaths" were due to fighting such a scorched-earth war not the German occupation.
Hardly. More like the Germans took everything. Including the people! :lol: They found the occupied territories quite useful and full of lovely Germanic items
The Soviets took everything with them but the scorched-earth when they retreated, even the people that would be useful for labor in the factories that were reassembled in the East. The Germans did take raw materials and grain but they sent industrial infrastructure to try to reestablish industry for the war-effort without much success. Stalin had planned for the probable enemy occupation of his empire's Western satrapies, as happened in the last war, and he considered them none too trustworthy anyway. Sure Hitler squeezed occupied territories--but Stalin squeezed his own people even more, especially disloyal ethnics.

I remember German refugees used-to enjoy telling stories about the backwardness of the liberating Russian troops. One Russian brought his new watch to a German to fix it because it wouldn't work. He showed him the inside and there was nothing but a dead bug in it. "Es Maschinka kaput!" Another one told me of the Soviet troops liberating water faucets from nice Prussian homes only to find that water did not come out when they pounded them into their own walls.

Yep, the Soviet desert was created by Hitler not the Tsars and the Communists.
:roll:

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#43

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Aug 2003, 09:01

oleg wrote:
It is extremely teleological to say that shipping people off to labor camps to build the industrial infrastructure to fight Germany later in WWII was therefore the fault of future German savagery.
what it has to do with anything? the number above is for 1941 to 1945 period. That said number of people who died in GULAG between 1934 and 1953, is 1,053,829.
The Gulag deaths are only the tip of the iceberg. Entire cities were moved and replanted in Siberia and the Urals before and during the war. Death tolls were enormous and that is not even figured into the war unless it happened during the German occupation. The Germans thought they were marching into a cornucopia but it was instead a desert. It is naïve to say that it was the Germans who made it that way and not the war and the Soviets themselves, before and during the war.
On average, it took four Soviet soldiers to fight one German to a standstill so the Germans were doing something right.
no it took that many to beat the hell out of Germans. To hold them off usually 1 to 1 ratio was sufficient.
Actually, I meant the German defense and therefore should have phrased that it took one German to fight four Soviet soldiers to a standstill.
If anything, the Germans were not savage enough because they weren't able to inflict enough damage on the Soviet beast to enable them to win the war.
we are not talking about military losses we are talking about losses among civil population Scott.
Scorched-earth warfare is bound to cause civilians to drop like flies. The Germans weren't the only ones practicising this.
Overall the Germans were much better led.
– very arguable – to put it mildly –strategically Germans lost the war to Soviets in 1941, whatever tactical advantage they might have occasionally was negated was negated by strategic blunders.
I agree. The Germans were also outgunned and outmanned. If the Americans and British were not in the war then maybe the Germans would have had a chance. Hitler should have understood this but his General Staff failed him miserably. The German General Staff was obsessed on Operations and failed at Logistics and Intelligence.
The "excessive civilian deaths" were due to fighting such a scorched-earth war not the German occupation.
Oh I assume you have something to back it up? Striping population bare on the occupied territories had nothing to do with it? How about forced laborers?
I know the Soviet people were just a bunch happy Muzhiks living quietly in quaint village bliss until the barbarians came from the West.

I'm not trying to disparage the Soviet people but the simplistic and apologetic notion of the war as one of "extermination" instead of a mutually-brutal war annoys me; not all countries have the luxury to fight bourgeois wars of our own choosing when the public opinion polls indicate a need for some kind of public distraction. The real war was fought on the Soviet Front. That does not mean that the Western Allies had any obligation to open up a second front or to give the Soviets half of Europe as a reward for their services as canon-fodder, IMHO.
:)

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#44

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 Aug 2003, 09:38

The Gulag deaths are only the tip of the iceberg. Entire cities were moved and replanted in Siberia and the Urals before and during the war. Death tolls were enormous and that is not even figured into the war unless it happened during the German occupation. The Germans thought they were marching into a cornucopia but it was instead a desert. It is naïve to say that it was the Germans who made it that way and not the war and the Soviets themselves, before and during the war.
death in evacuations amounted to 2.5- 3 million. And there would be no reason to move them if it was not for invasion would be there now? As for what was done before the war –how it is even relevant? How exactly it excuses German army attitude and behavior?
Actually, I meant the German defense and therefore should have phrased that it took one German to fight four Soviet soldiers to a standstill.
so? Well entrenched soldier regardless of nationality will always have an edge over attacker. During German Balaton offensive it was Soviet side that was outnumbered and they held out – that is just one example. That said – what exactly it has to do with behavior of German army?
Scorched-earth warfare is bound to cause civilians to drop like flies. The Germans weren't the only ones practicising this.
Byelorussia did not suffer from scorched earth, because Western military District was destroyed rather quickly and there was nobody left to practice it. And yet this republic had huge civilian death toll, which is along is bigger than that of Germany.
I know the Soviet people were just a bunch happy Muzhiks living quietly in quant village bliss until the barbarians came from the West.
misplaced irony Scott. They were not happy, but they definitely became far more pissed off after the invasion ensued.
The real war was fought on the Soviet Front.
I am not talking about front I am talking about occupied territories, and the simple fact is that the death tolls are incomparable, although I am not about to derive exact proportions. Scott I know that “sympathy for the evil” is contagious thing but this is ridiculous.
I'm not trying to disparage the Soviet people but the simplistic and apologetic notion of the war as one of "extermination" instead of a brutal war annoys me;
how come you are not running to the rescue every time people are talking about crimes committed by the Red Army –if above statement of yours is true it should annoy the hell out of you as well.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#45

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 Aug 2003, 09:43

Scott Smith wrote:
Galicia wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: The "excessive civilian deaths" were due to fighting such a scorched-earth war not the German occupation.
Hardly. More like the Germans took everything. Including the people! :lol: They found the occupied territories quite useful and full of lovely Germanic items
The Soviets took everything with them but the scorched-earth when they retreated, even the people that would be useful for labor in the factories that were reassembled in the East. The Germans did take raw materials and grain but they sent industrial infrastructure to try to reestablish industry for the war-effort without much success. Stalin had planned for the probable enemy occupation of his empire's Western satrapies, as happened in the last war, and he considered them none too trustworthy anyway. Sure Hitler squeezed occupied territories--but Stalin squeezed his own people even more, especially disloyal ethnics.

I remember German refugees used-to enjoy telling stories about the backwardness of the liberating Russian troops. One Russian brought his new watch to a German to fix it because it wouldn't work. He showed him the inside and there was nothing but a dead bug in it. "Es Maschinka kaput!" Another one told me of the Soviet troops liberating water faucets from nice Prussian homes only to find that water did not come out when they pounded them into their own walls.

Yep, the Soviet desert was created by Hitler not the Tsars and the Communists.
:roll:
Soviets lost more than half of their miliatry industry on the occupied territories so "Soviets took everything" passage holds no watter whatsoever. As for backwardness of Soviet troops - sure thing - German wearing women winter coats looked far more advanced :roll:

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