German soldier's guilt-filled diary

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Scott Smith
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#46

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Aug 2003, 19:12

oleg wrote:I'm not trying to disparage the Soviet people but the simplistic and apologetic notion of the war as one of "extermination" instead of a brutal war annoys me;
how come you are not running to the rescue every time people are talking about crimes committed by the Red Army –if above statement of yours is true it should annoy the hell out of you as well.
Actually, it does annoy me but it happens far less than the "crimes of the Nazis" on TV blitz and in other media, and besides, I tend not to get excited too much when others disagree, unlike some posters (not you). I usually don't even read posts about Russian rapes or whatever. I complain of a Genocide theory-of-history and that would apply to others besides the Nazis. But my point was that not all of the damage was done by the Germans, and not all of it was even done during the war. Stalin was "squeezing the lemon" for Total War long before the war. However, Hitler had to be dragged to Total War kicking and screaming after systematically running out of steam on all fronts. Also, just because the Germans invaded first does not necessarily make them the aggressors; they just threw the first punch. The U.S. is increasingly advocating the preemptive strike itself. Once war is considered inevitable, why not? Stalin thought so, which is why he started preparing for it in 1928. Hitler thought so in 1940. The Germans did a lot better than they should have considering the odds they really faced.
:)

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#47

Post by White Phosphorus » 23 Aug 2003, 22:58

Scott Smith wrote:
oleg wrote:I'm not trying to disparage the Soviet people but the simplistic and apologetic notion of the war as one of "extermination" instead of a brutal war annoys me;
how come you are not running to the rescue every time people are talking about crimes committed by the Red Army –if above statement of yours is true it should annoy the hell out of you as well.
Actually, it does annoy me but it happens far less than the "crimes of the Nazis" on TV blitz and in other media, and besides, I tend not to get excited too much when others disagree, unlike some posters (not you). I usually don't even read posts about Russian rapes or whatever. I complain of a Genocide theory-of-history and that would apply to others besides the Nazis. But my point was that not all of the damage was done by the Germans, and not all of it was even done during the war.

We are comparing the brutality of German vs Soviet occupation, and the numbers are not even in the same order of magnitude. Not to mention that the German army was 3 times smaller. Statements like war is bad, everybody did it, don't hold much water, because when Germans did it they were much better at it, 25.5 times better to be exact. The "not all damage was done by side X" can be applied to both sides and would not affect the ratio much.


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HaEn
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true or not ?

#48

Post by HaEn » 24 Aug 2003, 00:59

Lawrence Tandy wrote:It may just be me, but every time people start to realize that maybe the Germans were not a race of butchers and that maybe Germans were also subjected to the horrors of total war, that something like this comes out of left field to paint them all as murdering scum again. I will wait to pass judgement until I read it though. Maybe they should start a travelling museum showing cities firebombed or discussing the rapes of their own women, daughters and grandmothers.
I think there is a lot of truth to what you just wrote. I recently read a "draft" of a so called real witness story that had sprouted from the mind of a person who was not even born at the time yet.
I think stories like these belong in the same category as the ones of polish soldiers cutting off breasts of life p.o.w. females of the german army; the russian doctor who delivered a baby in Berlin by cutting the belly of the woman open with his pocketknife; and a dozen or so sick minded reports similar to these. That is not to say that there were no atrocities; there were. ON BOTH SIDES, especially in the eastern front.
Unfortunately garbage like this spreads like wildfire; the more violent our society becomes, the more people will believe this stuff. The western "cicvilization"(sic) is going to hell in a handbasket. :cry: HN.

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#49

Post by demonio » 24 Aug 2003, 01:09

oleg wrote:
PAK wrote:
oleg wrote:
Odessa2 wrote:it says in the diary that Russian soldiers treated people just as savagely.
and that's what we know from history.

from what "history" do you know that if you don't mind me asking?
Do you want me to list all books which refer to russian war crimes?
oleg wrote:well the thing is they started it - makes all the differnce.
Between what? Having feelings or not?
I wnat a book that would run qualitive analyzis between Geraman and Soviet war crimes -have one of these?

and please don't tell me there is no differnce between the morla outlook of the invading and dfending armies.
I think the only difference between German and Russian war crimes is that after the russians raped the women they didnt kill them

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#50

Post by Scott Smith » 24 Aug 2003, 01:23

White Phosphorus wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
oleg wrote:
Scott wrote:I'm not trying to disparage the Soviet people but the simplistic and apologetic notion of the war as one of "extermination" instead of a brutal war annoys me;

how come you are not running to the rescue every time people are talking about crimes committed by the Red Army –if above statement of yours is true it should annoy the hell out of you as well.
Actually, it does annoy me but it happens far less than the "crimes of the Nazis" on TV blitz and in other media, and besides, I tend not to get excited too much when others disagree, unlike some posters (not you). I usually don't even read posts about Russian rapes or whatever. I complain of a Genocide theory-of-history and that would apply to others besides the Nazis. But my point was that not all of the damage was done by the Germans, and not all of it was even done during the war.
We are comparing the brutality of German vs Soviet occupation, and the numbers are not even in the same order of magnitude. Not to mention that the German army was 3 times smaller. Statements like war is bad, everybody did it, don't hold much water, because when Germans did it they were much better at it, 25.5 times better to be exact. The "not all damage was done by side X" can be applied to both sides and would not affect the ratio much.
Well, Oleg says they weren't that much better at it.

Anyway, let's look at the absurdity of your calculus from another angle...

During the Vietnamese rescue mission from 1961-1973 about 58 thousand Americans were killed.

About 3 - 4 million Vietnamese, North and South were killed by the war.

About 1.5 - 2 million Laotians and Cambodians were killed by the war.

Given that the Americans chose to intervene in S.E. Asia that is a 77 - 104 to 1 ratio of Gooks per Americans killed.

Baby Killers.

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Re: true or not ?

#51

Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 24 Aug 2003, 09:48

HaEn wrote:I think stories like these belong in the same category as the ones of polish soldiers cutting off breasts of life p.o.w. females of the german army; the russian doctor who delivered a baby in Berlin by cutting the belly of the woman open with his pocketknife; and a dozen or so sick minded reports similar to these.
Sick minded but with a fair chance of truth.

~The Witch King of Angmar

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#52

Post by hauptmannn » 24 Aug 2003, 15:03

Oleg do you know that millions of russians were dying before the war actually started?

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#53

Post by Deterance » 24 Aug 2003, 18:03

Scott Smith wrote:
White Phosphorus wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
oleg wrote:
Scott wrote:
About 3 - 4 million Vietnamese, North and South were killed by the war.

About 1.5 - 2 million Laotians and Cambodians were killed by the war.

Given that the Americans chose to intervene in S.E. Asia that is a 77 - 104 to 1 ratio of Gooks per Americans killed.

Baby Killers.

Image

The total Asian deaths in the reigion do not take in account that many Asians were killed by other Asians.

I.e. South Vietnamese civilian casulties, South Vietnamese military Casulties from communist units. In addition one must factor in Pro US Hmong casulties as well as Communists killed by Hmons and South Vietnamese forces.

This true US / Asian kill ratio is smaller than you imply. Although there were ugly policies and ugly incidents in Vietnam....Comparisons between US forces in Vietnam and German actions in the Soviet Union are not valid.

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#54

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 24 Aug 2003, 18:52

hauptmannn wrote:Oleg do you know that millions of russians were dying before the war actually started?
Totall mortality on the Soviet side between 1941-1945 is 34 million. Total excessive detahs - 26.6 million if that is what you are asking.

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#55

Post by PolAntek » 24 Aug 2003, 19:54

oleg wrote:well the thing is they started it - makes all the differnce.
Not so fast Oleg ... a little reminder for you:

SEPTEMBER 17, 1939 - Soviets launch a surprise attack on Poland from the east in cooperation with their German allies.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#56

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 24 Aug 2003, 20:08

PolAntek wrote:
oleg wrote:well the thing is they started it - makes all the differnce.
Not so fast Oleg ... a little reminder for you:

SEPTEMBER 17, 1939 - Soviets launch a surprise attack on Poland from the east in cooperation with their German allies.
a) they were not allies -no more so than British and Russian Empires in the 19th century
b) I was talking about German attack on USSR.
c) I am not if it qulifies as an attack considering that Polish governmnet did not declare war on USSR.

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#57

Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 24 Aug 2003, 20:32

PolAntek wrote:SEPTEMBER 17, 1939 - Soviets launch a surprise attack on Poland from the east in cooperation with their German allies.
I expect a quote to prove that in English "non-aggression" and "alliance" are synonyms. :)

~The Witch King of Angmar

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#58

Post by David Thompson » 24 Aug 2003, 20:37

Let's get back on topic -- the German soldier's diary.

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#59

Post by Scott Smith » 24 Aug 2003, 21:15

Deterance wrote:
Scott wrote:About 3 - 4 million Vietnamese, North and South were killed by the war.

About 1.5 - 2 million Laotians and Cambodians were killed by the war.

Given that the Americans chose to intervene in S.E. Asia that is a 77 - 104 to 1 ratio of Gooks per Americans killed.

Baby Killers.

Image
The total Asian deaths in the reigion do not take in account that many Asians were killed by other Asians.

I.e. South Vietnamese civilian casulties, South Vietnamese military Casulties from communist units. In addition one must factor in Pro US Hmong casulties as well as Communists killed by Hmons and South Vietnamese forces.

This true US / Asian kill ratio is smaller than you imply. Although there were ugly policies and ugly incidents in Vietnam....Comparisons between US forces in Vietnam and German actions in the Soviet Union are not valid.
True. However, I deliberately blurred the analogy to present the viewpoint of the Victor (in this case the Communists). Without the aggressors (the Americans and War Criminal Johnson) the Communist takeover would have been nearly bloodless. But the VC had been denied democratic representation guaranteed them by international treaty.
:wink:

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#60

Post by Scott Smith » 24 Aug 2003, 21:21

David Thompson wrote:Let's get back on topic -- the German soldier's diary.
My two-cents: Oh, just another Bundestablishment Nestbeschmutzer. It is the "in" thing to do.
:wink:

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