And if there were medical gains, should they be used?

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Roberto
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Re: WHAT DATA?

Post by Roberto » 23 May 2002 12:44

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Perhaps the onus of proof should be on those wringing their hands over the morality of using data from the vaunted Nazi medical experiments...
That’s not exactly a scientific approach, is it?

Those who favor the use of data resulting from Nazi experiments on human guinea pigs should demonstrate that those data are useful for something in the first place, as I see it.
What data? Where is it?
:wink:
Why, no data? They butchered all those sub-human guinea pigs without therefrom obtaining any benefit for the valuable part of humanity?

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Scott Smith
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Re: WHAT DATA?

Post by Scott Smith » 23 May 2002 13:18

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Perhaps the onus of proof should be on those wringing their hands over the morality of using data from the vaunted Nazi medical experiments...
That’s not exactly a scientific approach, is it?

Those who favor the use of data resulting from Nazi experiments on human guinea pigs should demonstrate that those data are useful for something in the first place, as I see it.
What data? Where is it?
:wink:
Why, no data? They butchered all those sub-human guinea pigs without therefrom obtaining any benefit for the valuable part of humanity?
Pure tripe. No data/no experiments/no controversy about using the data that do not exist, then. Just the usual aspersions...
:mrgreen:

Oh those NATZEE doctors! Image

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 23 May 2002 13:28

Pure tripe. No data/no experiments/no controversy about using the data that do not exist, then. Just the usual aspersions...
“What I don’t want to have been cannot have been”, screams the True Believer.
In the murders in this field the Jews were not the only victims. The Nazi doctors also used Russian prisoners of war, Polish concentration camp inmates, women as well as men, and even Germans. The “experiments” were quite varied. Prisoners were placed in pressure chambers and subjected to high-altitude tests until they ceased breathing. They were injected with lethal doses of typhus and jaundice. They were subjected to “freezing” experiments in icy water or exposed naked in the snow outdoors until they froze to death. Poison bullets were tried on them as was mustard gas. At the Ravenbrück concentration camp for women hundreds of Polish inmates - the “rabbit girls” they were called - were given gas gangrene wounds while others were subjected to “experiments” in bone grafting. At Dachau and Buchenwald gypsies were selected to see how long, and in what manner, they could live on salt water. Sterilization experiments were carried out on a large scale at several camps by a variety of means on both men and women; for, as an SS physician, Dr. Adolf Pokorny, wrote Himmler on one occasion, “the enemy must be not only conquered but exterminated.” If he could not be slaughtered - and the need for slave labor toward the end of the war made that practice questionable, as we have seen - then he could be prevented from propagating. In fact Dr. Pokorny told Himmler he thought he had found just the right means, the plant Caladium seguinum , which, he said, induced lasting sterility.

[...]

It was this Dr. Sigmund Rascher who seems to have been responsible for the more sadistic of the medical experiments in the first place This horrible quack had attracted the attention of Himmler, among whose obsessions was the breeding of more and more superior Nordic offspring, through reports in SS circles that Frau Rascher had given birth to four children after passing the age of forty-eight, although in truth the Rashers had simply kidnapped them at suitable intervals from an orphanage.
In the spring of 1941, Dr. Rascher, who was attending a special medical course at Munich given by the Luftwaffe, had a brain storm. On May 15, 1941 he wrote Himmler about it. He had found to his horror that research on the effect of high altitudes on flyers was still at a standstill because “no tests with human material had yet been possible as such experiments are very dangerous and nobody volunteers for them.”

Can you make available two or three professional criminals for these experiments ... The experiments, by which the subjects can of course die, would take place with my co-operation.

The SS Führer replied within a week that “prisoners will, of course, be made available gladly for the high-flight research.”
They were, and Dr. Rascher went to work. The results may be seen from his own reports and from those of others, which showed up at Nuremberg and at the subsequent trial of the SS doctors.
Dr. Rascher’s own findings are a model of scientific jargon. For the high-altitude tests he moved the Air Force’s decompression chamber at Munich to the nearby Dachau concentration camp where human guinea pigs were readily available. Air was pumped out of the contraption so that the oxygen and air pressure at high altitudes could be simulated. Dr. Rascher then made his observations, of which the following one is typical.

The third test was without oxygen at the equivalent of 29,400 feet altitude conducted on a 37-year old Jew in good general condition. Respiration continued for 30 minutes. After four minutes the TP [test person] began to perspire and roll his head.
After five minutes spasms appeared; between the sixth and tenth minute respiration increased in frequency, the TP losing consciousness. From the eleventh to the thirtieth minute respiration slowed down to three inhalations per minute, only to cease entirely at the end of that period. ... About half an hour after breathing had ceased, an autopsy was begun.


An Austrian inmate, Anton Pacholegg, who worked in Dr, Rascher’s office, has described the “experiments” less scientifically.

I have personally seen through the observation window of the decompression chamber when a prisoner inside would stand a vacuum until his lungs ruptured. They would go mad and pull out their hair in an effort to relieve the pressure. They would tear their heads and face with their fingers and nails in an attempt to maim themselves in their madness. They would beat the walls with their hands and head and scream in an effort to relieve pressure on their eardrums. These cases usually ended in the death of the subject.

Some two hundred prisoners were subjected to this experiment before Dr. Rascher was finished with it. Of these, according to the testimony at the”Doctor’s Trial”, about eighty were killed outright and the remained executed somewhat later so that no tales would be told.
This particular research project was finished in May 1942, at which time Field Marshal Erhard Milch of the Luftwaffe conveyed Göring’s “thanks” to Himmler for Rascher’s pioneer experiments. A little later, on October 10, 1942, Lieutenant General Dr. Hippke, Medical Inspector of the Air Force, tendered to Himmler “in the name of the German aviation medicine and research” his “obedient gratitude” for “the Dachau experiments.” However, he thought, there was one omission in them. They had not taken in to account the extreme cold which an aviator faces at high altitudes. To rectify this omission the Luftwaffe, he informed Himmler, was building a decompression chamber “equipped with full refrigeration and with a normal altitude of 100,000 feet. Freezing experiments,” he added, “along different lines are still under way at Dachau.”
Indeed they were. And again Rascher was in the vanguard. But some of his doctor colleagues were having qualms. Was it Christian to do what Rascher was doing? Apparently a few German Luftwaffe medics were beginning to have their doubts. When Himmler heard of this he was infuriated and promptly wrote Field Marshal Milch protesting about the difficulties caused by “Christian medical circles” in the Air Force. He begged the Luftwaffe Chief of Staff to release Rascher from the Air Force medical corps so that he could be transferred to the SS. He suggested that they find a “non-Christian physician, who should be honorable as a scientist,” to pass on Dr. Rascher’s valuable works. In the meantime Himmler emphasized that he

personally assumed the responsibility for supplying asocial individuals and criminals who deserve only to die from concentration camps for these experiments.

Dr. Rascher’s “freezing experiments” were of two kinds: first, to see how much cold a human being could endure befroe he died; and second, to find the best way of re-warming a person who still lived after being exposed to extreme cold. Two methods were selected to freeze a man: dumping him into a tank of ice water or leaving him out in the snow, completely naked, overnight during winter. Rascher’s reports to Himmler on his “freezing” and “warming” experiments are voluminous; an example or two will give the tenor. One of the earliest ones was made on September 10, 1942.

The TPs were immersed in water in full flying uniform ... with hood. A life jacket prevented sinking. The experiments were conducted at temperatures between 36.5 and 53.5 degrees Fahrenheit. In the first test series the back of the head and the brain stem were above water. In another series the back of the neck and cerebellum were submerged. Temperatures as low as 79.5 in the stomach and 79.7 in the rectum were recorded electrically. Fatalities occurred only when the medulla and the cerebellum were chilled.
In autopsies of such fatalities large quantities of free blood, up to a pint, were always found in the cranial cavity. The heart regularly showed extreme distention of the right chamber. The TPs in such tests inevitably died when body temperature had declined to 82.5, despite all rescue attempts. The autopsy findings plainly prove the importance of a heated head and neck protector for the foam suit now in the process of development.


A table which Dr. Rascher appended covers six “Fatal Cases” and shows the water temperatures, body temperature on removal from water, body temperature at death, the length of stay in the water and the time it took the patient to die. The toughest man endued on the ice water for one hundred minutes, the weakest for fifty-three minutes.
Walter Neff, a camp inmate who served as Dr. Rascher’s medical orderly, furnished the “Doctor’s Trial” with a layman’s description of one water-freezing test.

It was the worst experiment ever made. Two Russian officers were brought from the prison barracks. Rascher had them stripped and they had to go into the vat naked. Hour after hour went by, and whereas usually unconsciousness from the cold set in after sixty minutes at the latest, the two men in this case still responded fully after two and a half hours. All appeals to Rasher to put them to sleep by injection were fruitless. About the third hour one of the Russians said to the other, ‘Comrade, please tell the offices to shoot us.’ The other replied that he expected no mercy from this Fascist dog. The two shook hands with a ‘Farewell, Comrade’ ... These words were translated to Rascher by a young Pole, though in a somewhat different form. Rascher went to his office. The young Pole at once tried to chloroform the two victims, but Rascher came back at once, threatening us with his gun. The test lasted at least five hours before death supervened.

The nominal “chief” of the initial cold-water experiments was a certain Dr. Holzloehner, Professor of Medicine at the University of Kiel, assisted by a Dr. Finke, and after working with Rascher for a couple of months they believed they had exhausted the experimental possibilities. The three physicians thereupon drew up a thirty-two page top-secret report to the Air Force entitled “Freezing Experiments with Human Beings” and called a meeting of German scientists at Nuremberg for October 26-27, 1942, to hear and discuss their findings. The subject of the meeting was “Medical Questions in Marine and Water Emergencies.” According to the testimony at the “Doctors’ Trial’, ninety-five German scientists, including some of the most eminent men in the field, participated, and though the three doctors left no doubt that a good many human beings had been done to death in the experiments there were no questions made as to this and no protests therefore made.
Professor Holzloehner [Footnote: Professor Hoçlzloehner may have had a guilty conscience. Picked up by the British he committed suicide after his first interrogation]and Dr. Finke bowed out of the experiments at this time but the persevering Dr. Rascher carried on alone from October 1942 until May of the following year. He wanted, among other things, to pursue experiments in what he called “dry freezing.” Auschwitz, he wrote to Himmler,

is much better suited for such tests than Dachau because it is colder there and because the size of the grounds causes less of a stir in the camps (The test persons yell when they freeze.)

For some reason the change of locality could not be arranged, so Dr. Rascher went ahead with his studies at Dachau, praying for some real winter weather.

Thank God, we have had another intense cold snap at Dachau [he wrote Himmler in the early spring of 1943]. Some people remained out in the open for 14 hours at 21 degrees, attaining an interior temperature of 77 degrees, with peripheral frostbite ...

At the “Doctor’s Trial” the witness Neff again provided a layman’s description if the “dry-freezing” experiments of his chief.

A prisoner was placed naked on a stretcher outside the barracks in the evening. He was covered with a sheet, and every hour a bucket of cold water was poured over him. The test person lay out in the open like this into the morning. Their temperatures were taken.
Later Dr. Rascher said it was a mistake to cover the subject with a sheet and to drench him with water ... In the future the test persons must not be covered. The next experiment was on ten prisoners who were exposed in turn, likewise naked.


As the prisoners slowly froze, Dr. Rascher or his assistant would record temperatures, heart action, respiration and so on. The cries of the suffering often rent the night.

Initially [Neff explained to the court] Rauff forbade these tests to be made in a state of anesthesia. But the test persons made such a racket that it was impossible for Rascher to continue these tests without anesthetic.


Source of quote:

William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Simon & Schuster New York, 1960, pages 979 to 991.

No experiments?

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Scott Smith
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Re: WHAT DATA?

Post by Scott Smith » 23 May 2002 14:03

Roberto wrote:No experiments?
Yes, we've been discussing Nazi medical experiments, real and fake. Shirer is a great source, btw. NOT!

Yeah, the Nazis just couldn't find any sick or injured people to try their antibiotics on...
:wink:
"Nazi doctors sliced open the leg of Ravensbruck survivor Jadwiga Dzido (shown here) and deliberately infected the wound with bacteria, dirt, and glass slivers to simulate a battlefield injury. They then treated the wound with sulfanilamide drugs."

Image

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/experiside.html

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Roberto
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Re: WHAT DATA?

Post by Roberto » 23 May 2002 17:22

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:No experiments?
Yes, we've been discussing Nazi medical experiments, real and fake.


Where are the "fake" ones, Reverend? None that you have shown us so far, unless I missed something.
Shirer is a great source, btw. NOT!
What's wrong with Shirer? His writings are based on nothing other than the findings of the Nuremberg "Doctors' Trial", after all.
Yeah, the Nazis just couldn't find any sick or injured people to try their antibiotics on...
As they did a lot more than just try antibiotics and the experiments were often deadly, volunteers would indeed have been in short supply. And then, why bother worthy Volksgenossen when sub-human guinea pigs were plentiful?
"Nazi doctors sliced open the leg of Ravensbruck survivor Jadwiga Dzido (shown here) and deliberately infected the wound with bacteria, dirt, and glass slivers to simulate a battlefield injury. They then treated the wound with sulfanilamide drugs."
If an untried drug is tried instead of already experimented medication on a worthy Volksgenosse, he or she may die, and the doctor responsible will get his or her ears pulled.

If the same drug is tried on a sub-human guinea pig, he or she may die, but no one will care.

Besides, you don't have to look for the kind of injury on which to try your drug - you just create it yourself.

Quiet a few advantages.

And even if there had been none, this wouldn't speak against a certain experiment having been performed in the face of conclusive evidence that it was. Irrational people do irrational things, especially when they have the power to engage in every scientist's secret dream of no-holds-barred experimenting besides indulging in their sadistic tendencies.

"Why would they have" or "I would not have" - considerations are strictly for the birds under these circumstances. It is completely beyond me who can possibly fall for the crap that "Revisionists" produce, for instance. Yet there seem to be many such simple souls around.

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Field tests on knowledge gained

Post by Yedith » 25 May 2002 17:15

Were there plans of how this research would have been used in the field? If I understand this correctly, transplant surgery of a digit, limb or other external body part has to be done quite quickly. What there a plan on how to use this "technology" on the battlefield, (I suppose the same applies to the "freezing" and "seawater" experiments.)

What? Were a supply of "subhumans" to be kept near field hospitals to supply raw material?

(and I'm reluctantly setting ethics aside 8O)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/experiside.html
And thanks for the URL, Scott.
Bone, muscle, and joint transplantation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To learn if a limb or joint from one person could be successfully attached to another who had lost that limb or joint, experimenters at Ravensbruck amputated legs and shoulders from inmates in useless attempts to transplant them onto other victims. They also removed sections of bones, muscles, and nerves from prisoners to study regeneration of these body parts. Victims suffered excruciating pain, mutilation, and permanent disability as a result.
Last edited by Yedith on 25 May 2002 17:25, edited 1 time in total.

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