Lampshades

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Kaiser
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Lampshades

#1

Post by Kaiser » 19 May 2002, 20:04

Adding to the previous post regarding makeing soap out of body fat, I've heard that they also made lampshades out of human skin. I also heard rumors that some of these are still floating around on the black market. True?

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Birgitte Heuschkel
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#2

Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 19 May 2002, 20:16

I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was a single instance of some rather bizarre female member of the SS who liked tattoos so much she'd have nice samples stripped off the bodies and made into lamp shades. However, I seriously doubt that it was a common practice -- quite likely a single nutcase.


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Roberto
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#3

Post by Roberto » 20 May 2002, 13:19

Birgitte Heuschkel wrote:I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was a single instance of some rather bizarre female member of the SS who liked tattoos so much she'd have nice samples stripped off the bodies and made into lamp shades. However, I seriously doubt that it was a common practice -- quite likely a single nutcase.
The bizarre female member was Ilse Koch, the wife of the commander of Buchenwald concentration camp. She fancied imaginative tattoos such as were common in the German criminal underworld at the time and thus had the skins of prisoners with such tattoos who died or were killed at the concentration camp made into lampshades. A single nutcase, as a matter of fact. Exhibits thereof can be viewed under the following links:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... s-3420.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... wald02.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... -doc04.gif

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... -doc01.gif

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Kaiser
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#4

Post by Kaiser » 21 May 2002, 03:45

Thanks Roberto, Birgitte.

Now the scary part - are these things actually traded in some kind of 'underground' of sick nazi collectors? I've heard rumors that one of these trades for $10,000. I'm sure this is very illegal if it is ture, eh?

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Scott Smith
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BITCH OF BUCHENWALD..

#5

Post by Scott Smith » 21 May 2002, 04:04

Kaiser wrote:Thanks Roberto, Birgitte.

Now the scary part - are these things actually traded in some kind of 'underground' of sick nazi collectors? I've heard rumors that one of these trades for $10,000. I'm sure this is very illegal if it is ture, eh?
NO, these exhibits do not exist. They may have been shown briefly during the Nuremberg trials but no forensic testing was done to my knowledge and nobody has them for verification today. General Clay said in his memoirs that the lampshades were actually made of vellum and not human skin, and as far as the tatoos, that was probably specimens planted in Ilse's quarters that came from the pathology lab. I understand that there was some interest in documenting the correlation between criminality and tatoos and that the Buchenwald pathology lab was documenting this by saving examples from deceased/executed prisoners. Ditto with the shrunken heads, which were either faked or merely anthropological exhibits coming from South America.

I ask again: WHERE are these relics for verification?

Of course, the Nuremberg trials had no rules-of-evidence; therefore, any heresay or objets d' horreur could be admitted into "evidence" that was deemed by these kangaroos as "having probative value."

And none of this is to argue one way or another whether Ilse Koch was a good human being or not. But the "Bitch of Buchenwald" made headlines. And that is what was wanted.
:roll:

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Last edited by Scott Smith on 21 May 2002, 08:35, edited 1 time in total.

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GFM2000
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Ilse Koch

#6

Post by GFM2000 » 21 May 2002, 04:21

What was Ilse Koch's plea at her trial (assuming there was one before she was hanged)? Did she admit to her crimes, of collecting tattoo samples or obtaining shrunken heads of the inmates at her camp?

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Re: Ilse Koch

#7

Post by Scott Smith » 21 May 2002, 04:45

GFM2000 wrote:What was Ilse Koch's plea at her trial (assuming there was one before she was hanged)? Did she admit to her crimes, of collecting tattoo samples or obtaining shrunken heads of the inmates at her camp?
I assume that she pled not-guilty. Anyway, she was sentenced to a life-term in 1947 but was released after 4 years. In 1949, she was re-arrested for supposedly killing German nationals. She gave birth to a son while in prison and hanged HERSELF in her cell in 1967. A weird story.
8O

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#8

Post by Xanthro » 21 May 2002, 05:19

Most of these stories have a kernel of truth to them, but that truth is most often not what is in the common mind.

Ilse Koch did take skins off tattooed prisoners. It's most likely these were non-Jews as Jews in general didn't have many tattooes. Of course, people in the camp see this, and the story spreads. Soon talk in Buchenwald becomes that all the dead are turned into lamp shades, then it spreads to other camps. Soon everyone thinks that lamp shades are being mass produced. Because some people expect to see this, they misinterpret what they see as being actual examples of people being skinned for lamp shades. Such as seeing bodies stripped from a distance, they in their minds think they are being skinned.

Same thing with the Soap stories.

Also, you have to remember that the conditions is the camps were horrid, even the ones not directly designed for death. People died all the time. Surrounded by death, the prisoners would pick up on all kinds of stories. The guards aren't immune to this either. Imagine watching 100s of women and childern die every month. Soon normal people are willing to believe all kinds of stories.

A true historian has to examine the evidence, and take into consideration that because of the conditions, there will be wild stories. You sort through this, and compare other evidence to determine the facts.

Holocaust deniers like to take this basic human trait, that under duress people are most likely to believe and pass along stories, and turn it into some type of denial of history.

Of course there are wild stories about the holocaust, there are wild stories about every historical event.

Xanthro

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Kaiser
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#9

Post by Kaiser » 21 May 2002, 06:56

Thanks for the photos Scott.

The reason I brought this up is that I have heard of fairly consistent rumors that at least one weathly gentleman(?) in the US owns one of these lampshades. The tatto is not one of original design that makes it popular, but it is a tatto of the serial number of which the jewish prisoners received on their arms.

Even if this isn't true, is there some sort of line in which something from WWII is deemed illegal to trade and something is not, however sick it is? Are there any credible examples of something floating around which would be deemed 'illegal' in most civilized countries? Where is the boundary drawn?

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#10

Post by michael mills » 21 May 2002, 07:27

Ilse Koch did take skins off tattooed prisoners. It's most likely these were non-Jews as Jews in general didn't have many tattooes. Of course, people in the camp see this, and the story spreads. Soon talk in Buchenwald becomes that all the dead are turned into lamp shades, then it spreads to other camps. Soon everyone thinks that lamp shades are being mass produced. Because some people expect to see this, they misinterpret what they see as being actual examples of people being skinned for lamp shades. Such as seeing bodies stripped from a distance, they in their minds think they are being skinned
The bizarre female member was Ilse Koch, the wife of the commander of Buchenwald concentration camp. She fancied imaginative tattoos such as were common in the German criminal underworld at the time and thus had the skins of prisoners with such tattoos who died or were killed at the concentration camp made into lampshades. A single nutcase, as a matter of fact.
There is no solid evidence that Ilse Koch ordered tattooed skin to be taken from prisoners, or that she had a collection of such tattooed human skin.

There is documentary evidence that concentration camps were ordered to collect examples of tattooed skin from prisoners; there is correspondence showing that such examples were collected and sent to the WVHA in Berlin. Whether prisoners were specifically killed for the purpose of removing tattooed skin from them, or whether the examples were taken from prisoners who had died in the normal course of concentration camp existence (of whom there were many) is not clear.

The purpose behind the collection of tattooed skin is not documented, but it is likely that the examples were to form part of some sort of museum of hereditary criminality, given that tattooing was considered a sign of criminality.

Apart from the above, what Xanthro wrote probably represents the truth. The stories about lampshades and other articles made of human skin, and their collection by people such as Ilse Koch, probably arose as a sort of camp gossip to explain the observed procedure of removing tattooed skin from dead prisoners, which was carried out in the pathology department at Buchenwald.

The stories centred on Ilse Koch because, as a beautiful and exhibitionistic woman, she had become an object of the sexual fantasies of the prisoners. The fact that later, as a prisoner herself, she managed to become pregnant while confined to a prison cell, almost certainly to one of her guards, demonstrates the sexual attraction she exerted over men. However, sexual fantasy is one of the most powerful subverters of truthknown to the human mind. It is quite common for men, including concentration camp prisoners, to dream of being sexually abused by a dominant woman.[/code]

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#11

Post by Tarpon27 » 21 May 2002, 22:36

Scott Smith wrote:

General Clay said in his memoirs that the lampshades were actually made of vellum and not human skin, and as far as the tatoos, that was probably specimens planted in Ilse's quarters that came from the pathology lab.
General Clay was responsible for reconstruction of Germany for a period of several years after the end of the war, and doubtless was busy.

It also appears that there is more than one side to statements attributed to Clay per the origin and material of the pieces. One article claims that Clay's statement was based on two civilian defense lawyers who informed the General that the pieces were not human skin; there are also the forensic/pathology reports that some of the artifacts were found to be human skin.

Mark

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#12

Post by Tarpon27 » 21 May 2002, 22:47

Michael Mills wrote:

The stories centred on Ilse Koch because, as a beautiful and exhibitionistic woman, she had become an object of the sexual fantasies of the prisoners. The fact that later, as a prisoner herself, she managed to become pregnant while confined to a prison cell, almost certainly to one of her guards, demonstrates the sexual attraction she exerted over men. However, sexual fantasy is one of the most powerful subverters of truthknown to the human mind. It is quite common for men, including concentration camp prisoners, to dream of being sexually abused by a dominant woman.
Loch may have been a beautiful woman, but images I have seen of her appear to indicate that the camera did not love her; being photogenic may not have been one of her gifts.

I would imagine, too, that inmates at Buchenwald may have had sexual fantasies about her, but many likewise probably had fantasies of killing her, her husband, and anyone in authority there, if possible.

Was it true she became pregnant in her cell? Most sites I have seen, and two small book quotations I have read on her do not mention this; just curious, and when you mix female inmates and male guards, sex will always be a reality, whether voluntary or not. Some have described Koch as a nymphomaniac and exhibitionistic; traits that would certainly liven up a prison stay (or enrage prisoners, too).

Per the last sentence of Mr. Mills paragraph above, well...it is an amusing statement. :D

Best,

Mark

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#13

Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 21 May 2002, 23:21

Tarpon27 wrote:Some have described Koch as a nymphomaniac and exhibitionistic;
And someone got inspired by her story to make the porn flick "Ilse, She-Wolf of the SS" too. No, I haven't seen it. Yes, I plan to. I wouldn't want to miss the option to laugh.

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Scott Smith
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ILSE and KARL: a love story (rated xxx)

#14

Post by Scott Smith » 22 May 2002, 03:46

Tarpon27 wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: General Clay said in his memoirs that the lampshades were actually made of vellum and not human skin, and as far as the tatoos, that was probably specimens planted in Ilse's quarters that came from the pathology lab.
General Clay was responsible for reconstruction of Germany for a period of several years after the end of the war, and doubtless was busy.
So, Clay was busy and thus pardoned a convicted Nazi war criminal? Well, Ilse Koch was Clay's political hot potato. Yeah, one would think that this would be rather silly for an occupational commander to need to worry about... Anyway, I don't have Clay's memoirs at my disposal at the moment. Clearly, he did not believe in her guilt.
It also appears that there is more than one side to statements attributed to Clay per the origin and material of the pieces. One article claims that Clay's statement was based on two civilian defense lawyers who informed the General that the pieces were not human skin; there are also the forensic/pathology reports that some of the artifacts were found to be human skin.
Well, yes, Believers are going to believe anything. If it wasn't true then it ought to be, I suppose, for them. Whether the lurid psychosexual atrocity-propaganda is REALLY true or not is another story.

Anyway, always hearsay, always affidavits, always missing physical evidence... Where is this unique and incomparible historical evidence? No doubt hiding in an Israeli vault somewhere, along with Demjanjuk's Sobibor I.D. card. What we have here are the relics of Antioch: wood from the cross and bones from the saints.
:mrgreen:

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Tarpon27
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#15

Post by Tarpon27 » 22 May 2002, 13:35

Scott wrote:
Anyway, always hearsay, always affidavits, always missing physical evidence... Where is this unique and incomparible historical evidence?
Well, three pieces of human tatooed skin were entered into the evidence record at Nuremberg, along with a shrunken head. A foresnic report is included, authenticating the samples as human skin.

Upon Koch's release and commutation of her prison record by General Clay, the US Senate held hearings on her case, and the skin samples were entered into evidence at those hearings.

General Clay later wrote he released Koch because of the record available to him at that time, that included the findings of two civilian attorneys who subsequently were found to be in error.

More on this can be found at:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... ch-03.html

If you find the Nizkor source to be questionable, I would be delighted to read your post as you refute it.

Now, someone Scott, removed and tanned pieces of tatooed human skin. It is part of the historical record. Considering that Himmler at one time wanted to create some insane museum of human skeletons and artifacts to compliment his theories on racial purity, it is hardly surprising that others may likewise have developed their own tastes for the grotesque. Michael Mills has posted above on a collection to display the physical traits of "criminals" through body parts.

It is misleading to continue to assert that General Clay stated that ALL specimens found were not human skin but goat skin etc.; General Clay later states that he was going on the record at that time, and what he was told.

If you so wish to continue to state that NO physical evidence has EVER existed, then what was the report and samples entered in evidence at Nuremberg, or the same samples displayed at the US Senate hearing?

You also seem incapable of believing that in the waning stages of the war, that the Nazis would be incapable of attempting to either hide or destroy evidence of atrocities and some of their most questionable practices; I for one, never felt that the Nazis were stupid. Treblinka was literally buried and replanted; the camps were dynamited after Maidenek, papers were found buried in mines (who knows how much was never found), and much of the records I assume went to bonfires.

Regards,

Mark

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