Lampshades

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Scott Smith
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#16

Post by Scott Smith » 22 May 2002, 21:12

Tarpon27 wrote:It is misleading to continue to assert that General Clay stated that ALL specimens found were not human skin but goat skin etc.
I believe I said the lampshades were goatskin, not the tatoos. Who would make lampshades out of human skin, unless it came from the martyred Saints or something? Mattresses out of barbershop trimmings, maybe.

The tatoo-sample explanation is reasonable. But if you really want to see some weird stuff look at the museum of the U.S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. Now, just stamp swastikas all over and you have some really great Greuelpropaganda! Pretty simple.
General Clay later states that he was going on the record at that time, and what he was told.
I'm sure he came under a lot of fire.
If you so wish to continue to state that NO physical evidence has EVER existed, then what was the report and samples entered in evidence at Nuremberg, or the same samples displayed at the US Senate hearing?
No, my question is, where IS this freak-show? That it was used as "evidence" is all the more reason to have had it stored in a secure evidence-locker for future historians and jurists. It is little more than "Ripley's Believe It Or Not." Nizkor Believes. I do not.
You also seem incapable of believing that in the waning stages of the war, that the Nazis would be incapable of attempting to either hide or destroy evidence of atrocities and some of their most questionable practices; I for one, never felt that the Nazis were stupid.
And you seem to think that the Allies were above forgery (although the only documents where I definitely suspect that this might be the case are the Bischoff-Kammler "Vergasungskeller" document and the Becker-Rauff "Gas-Van" documents.

Anyone can try to hide evidence but is limited in that by an almost clairvoyant prescience. The criminal/principal had to know in advance exactly what future investigators/historians will look for--and few criminals are able to defeat thorough investigations. Historians can discover what happened to Tutankhamen, for example, even if no records were kept and no one was allowed to live who knew the tale. Certainly much will never be known. But the enormity of the claims work against coverup.
Treblinka was literally buried and replanted;
Yes, the evil Nazi gardeners managed to put the earth back to ancient conditions as though undisturbed by human hands, if we are to believe the ground-penetrating radar report, which has never even been attempted by Nizkor. Why should they make any empirical observations? Their job is damage-control not real history.

Yes, the Nazis managed to destroy millions of human teeth, planted in the Treblinka soil a half-century ago and waiting for the intellectually curious to find and lay the objections of the Deniers to rest. Perhaps some alien race will find the archaeological evidence thousands of years hence. In the year 2525...

:aliengray :aliengray

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#17

Post by Tarpon27 » 23 May 2002, 01:21

Scott wrote:

Yes, the Nazis managed to destroy millions of human teeth
No, they didn't. They shipped 'em back to the Reichbank to pay for more panzers to end the war the Jews started.

Hey!

This is easy, and fun.

Bye, Scott.

Mark


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Scott Smith
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GOLD RELICS...

#18

Post by Scott Smith » 23 May 2002, 01:32

Tarpon27 wrote:
Scott wrote:

Yes, the Nazis managed to destroy millions of human teeth
No, they didn't. They shipped 'em back to the Reichbank to pay for more panzers to end the war the Jews started.

Hey!

This is easy, and fun.

Bye, Scott.

Mark
Ah, so, all Jewish teeth were made of gold. I gotcha.

But perhaps they only turned into gold AFTER their martyrdom, like the bones of the Saints.
:wink:

Best Regards,
Scott

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#19

Post by Tarpon27 » 23 May 2002, 11:22

For those interested in more reading on these artifacts, Ilse Koch, etc., the following URL appears to have one of the better web based articles:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... eKoch.html


David Irving's site has a page suggesting that the "family album", i.e., two photo albums, has been found; they are in a US government archive. He posts a letter from the National Archives, a request for "repairs", and a letter from an expert on tanning that says these two albums are covered with the hide of a large animal, but since they are suede, and they cannot identify the hide.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/con ... humanskin/

(In leather, from my work experience in attempting to save leather pieces in disasters, "hide" is the term for large animals, "skin" for small. Normally, for instance with cows, the hide removed from the animal is split; "top grain" is the top, outside layer, and the best quality. The inner layer, with its nubby outside, is suede; "nubuck" is leather mechanically treated to create that suede appearance. It would be difficult to determine if it is cowhide or from another animal as suede, as no characteristics of the outside "skin" would be seen, such as pore size, hairs, marks, etc.)

Ilse Koch was pregnant at her first trial, under the Allies. The URL above starts with a quote from Toland's book whereby Konrad Morgen states that he would not testify to Koch's actually having skin artifacts made, and according to this quote and, of course (!), Irving's site, Morgen was threatened and beaten by Allied investigators. While the URL quotes from Morgen's investigation, using Hohne's book on the SS, it fails to mention that Hohne claims that Morgen so "severely" interrogated Karl Koch, that he confessed to all his crimes (I checked it, and will post the passage from _The Order of the Death's Head: The Story of Hitler's SS_, by Heinz Höhne, if anyone wants to read it.)

Anyway, the explanantion of the trials of Ilse Koch is at the URL, including that Morgen charged her with embezzlement (from a shared bank account with her husband) but found the evidence of her supposed atrocities not convinvcing. Likewise, in her trial by the Allies, she was tried only for war crimes after 1942 (after Germany's declaration of war on the US); she had been a secretary in Dresden, then a guard at the concentration camp Sachsenhausen; she met Karl Koch there when he became the first commandant there in 1936. Her German trial was for her offences in the earlier period.

The article also states that some of the artifacts collected at Dachau and Buchenwald are in the US national archives, while others are tracked supposedly to some former US servicemen who left Germany post WWII with some rather gruesome souvenirs.

Interesting reading.

Regards,

Mark

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Roberto
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#20

Post by Roberto » 23 May 2002, 12:59

And you seem to think that the Allies were above forgery (although the only documents where I definitely suspect that this might be the case are the Bischoff-Kammler "Vergasungskeller" document and the Becker-Rauff "Gas-Van" documents.
1. Is that so, Mr. Smith? On what grounds – other than their obvious inconvenience to your Faith – do you believe the documents in question to be forgeries?

2. If those mentioned are the only ones that Smith suspects to be forgeries, this means that he has no doubt about the authenticity of other documents related to the Nazis’ crimes. Such as the Korherr Report, the Höfle memorandum, the Einsatzgruppen Operational Situation Reports, Greiser’s letter to Himmler of 1 May 1942, Ganzenmüller’s letter to Wolff of 28.07.1942, the memoranda of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Bauleitung dated 29.01.1943 and 28.06.1943, Goebbels’ diary entries and the records of Himmler’s speeches at Posen on the 4th and 6th of October 1943, among many others. Very instructive. That being so, I assume that Smith also has no doubts about the authenticity of e.g. the letter sent by SS – Gruppenführer Dr. Turner to Karl Wolff, chief of Himmler's personal staff, on April 11, 1942. This letter is transcribed and scanned in under the link

http://www.holocaust-history.org/19420411-turner-wolff/

and translated there as follows:
Privy Councillor Dr. Turner
SS-Major General
F.P.Number 18.739 O.U., April 11, 1942
Dear Comrade Wolff!
Now that the decision has been taken in my favor, I would be remiss - since I am convinced that this is singularly and only thanks to your influence and your tireless activity - if I did not transmit to you my most comradely and heartfelt thanks.
I can also again today, the more so since you know me well enough, only again repeat, that the matter did not have to do with my person - the person concerned could have just as easily had another name - but rather with a necessary battle that had to be fought against one-sided Wehrmacht interests, by which in the final unspoken result the SS Leaders, and therewith also the SS and further also the civil servants would have been affected.
The best proof for this is, on the one hand, a remark woven into an official document from WB Southeast "the appointment of the Higher SS and Police Leader, which did not take place according to the proposal here" or words to that effect, and on the other hand, the comment of the Chief of the General Staff WB Southeast after receipt of the decision in my favor "herewith the Wehrmacht has lost a battle".
In any event, there reigns here in all circles, even the Wehrmacht who have in any way followed this struggle, only joy over this victory and this joy you have alone, as I see it, afforded these people. My thanks for that.
May I use this occasion to send you as an attachment a copy of a letter from me to the Reichsführer of January 15, 1942 to which I have yet to receive an answer. I am not complaining because as I know, such things take time and I don't feel it is right for me to press the Reichsführer for the settlement of an affair. I know that for such matters you have an interest and the reason I now draw your attention to it is only because this question is now more than critical. Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp, which in any event since the arrival of Meyssner and the turning over of this camp to him, was continued by him. Then the time is come in which the Jewish officers to be found in prisoner of war camps under the Geneva Convention find out against our will about their no longer existing kinfolk and that could easily lead to complications.
Were the affected persons now to be freed, they would in the minute of the arrival have their ultimate freedom, but like their racial comrades not for very long, and then this entire question should be resolved once and for all. Any consideration could have counter-effects on our prisoners in Canada, if it comes out that the freed persons do not move around freely here... I personally do not agree with this consideration.
With best wishes for your personal well being, heartiest greetings and
Heil Hitler!
I am as always
your loyal

Turner
Emphasis is mine.

What was Turner talking about in the highlighted passage, Mr. Smith?
Quote:
Treblinka was literally buried and replanted;

Yes, the evil Nazi gardeners managed to put the earth back to ancient conditions as though undisturbed by human hands, if we are to believe the ground-penetrating radar report, which has never even been attempted by Nizkor. Why should they make any empirical observations? Their job is damage-control not real history.
The Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland described the Treblinka burial site as follows:
There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres),
there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches.
From the report by the Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. Warsaw, 1946

Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm

The condition in which the Central Commission found the Treblinka burial site was not the one in which the SS had left it, but resulted from a bizarre phenomenon known as "The Treblinka Gold Rush", which happened when the Ukranian the Germans left behind to guard the site fled before the advancing Red Army. At that time huge numbers of locals and others dug through the ground looking for "Jew-gold" (Golczewski in Benz et al, Dimensionen des Völkermords, quoting Alexander Donat's Treblinka).

Yet despite all that digging, the “Revisionist” ground penetrating radar found no traces of soil disturbance, which arouses the suspicion that the fellow who operated it didn’t find anything because he badly wanted to find nothing. Which in turn is not surprising, given that the job of these people is not real history but ideologically motivated propaganda.
Yes, the Nazis managed to destroy millions of human teeth, planted in the Treblinka soil a half-century ago and waiting for the intellectually curious to find and lay the objections of the Deniers to rest.
1. What makes the “intellectually curious” think that human teeth will necessarily survive incineration of the bodies on grids such as was done at Treblinka and the other Aktion Reinhard(t) extermination camps?

2. If the “intellectually curious” have a problem with the notion that the burnt remains of hundreds of thousands of people lie under the ground of the Treblinka burial site, despite the fact that the burial space was more than enough to accommodate the number of dead that becomes apparent from the documentary evidence and the detailed and coincident depositions and testimonials of dozens of people who either carried out the killing or witnessed it at first hand, do they also have an alternative explanation as to what became of, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government who, according to the Höfle memorandum, were taken to Treblinka until the end of 1942? Or does their “intellectual curiosity” not go as far as trying to find out what happened to hundreds of thousands of people who they against all evidence maintain were not killed at a certain time and place?

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MORE Is-Too/Is-Not...

#21

Post by Scott Smith » 23 May 2002, 14:38

Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:And you seem to think that the Allies were above forgery (although the only documents where I definitely suspect that this might be the case are the Bischoff-Kammler "Vergasungskeller" document and the Becker-Rauff "Gas-Van" documents.
Is that so, Mr. Smith? On what grounds – other than their obvious inconvenience to your Faith – do you believe the documents in question to be forgeries?
Starting with technical grounds. But we've discussed this before, haven't we? The Gas-Vans are just outta murder-gas.
Rob wrote:
Scott wrote:Yes, the Nazis managed to destroy millions of human teeth, planted in the Treblinka soil a half-century ago and waiting for the intellectually curious to find and lay the objections of the Deniers to rest.
What makes the “intellectually curious” think that human teeth will necessarily survive incineration of the bodies on grids such as was done at Treblinka and the other Aktion Reinhard(t) extermination camps?
What makes the intellectually incurious think they will not? Teeth are always the last to be destroyed and yet that Nazis got every one and with a barbecue grill besides.
:monkee:

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Roberto
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Re: MORE Is-Too/Is-Not...

#22

Post by Roberto » 23 May 2002, 17:22

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:And you seem to think that the Allies were above forgery (although the only documents where I definitely suspect that this might be the case are the Bischoff-Kammler "Vergasungskeller" document and the Becker-Rauff "Gas-Van" documents.
Is that so, Mr. Smith? On what grounds – other than their obvious inconvenience to your Faith – do you believe the documents in question to be forgeries?
Starting with technical grounds. But we've discussed this before, haven't we? The Gas-Vans are just outta murder-gas.
If Smith's "technical grounds" are not just a big fat hoax, the vans' engines were of another type than described in some accounts. Big deal. Got nothing better than that?
Rob wrote:
Scott wrote:Yes, the Nazis managed to destroy millions of human teeth, planted in the Treblinka soil a half-century ago and waiting for the intellectually curious to find and lay the objections of the Deniers to rest.
What makes the “intellectually curious” think that human teeth will necessarily survive incineration of the bodies on grids such as was done at Treblinka and the other Aktion Reinhard(t) extermination camps?
What makes the intellectually incurious think they will not?
The intellectually incurious don't think at all, they just follow the dictates of Faith. The intellectually curious, on the other, reason that if hundreds of thousands of people disappeared from the face of the earth behind the gates of a place

i) where dozens of eyewitnesses saw them being killed, buried and burned;
ii) from which the stench of insufficiently buried dead bodies befouled the air for many miles around; and
iii) where large quantities of ashes and other partial remains were found all over an area of more than 20,000 square meters, buried to a depth of 7.5 meters,

such traces of the dead that could not be identified must have been consumed by the fire. Anything wrong with this reasoning?
Teeth are always the last to be destroyed
How does Mr. Smith know this? Is this contention based on some reliable source or merely on his own wishful thinking?
and yet that Nazis got every one and with a barbecue grill besides.
Nothing better for incineration than a grid made of railway tracks, as the SS found out after unsuccessfully trying other methods. And as whatever remains that survived the burning were ground with plugs, such would also have happened to scorched teeth left behind after incineration, to the extent that there were any.
Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp, which in any event since the arrival of Meyssner and the turning over of this camp to him, was continued by him. Then the time is come in which the Jewish officers to be found in prisoner of war camps under the Geneva Convention find out against our will about their no longer existing kinfolk and that could easily lead to complications.
Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/19420411-turner-wolff/

The question is still standing, Reverend: What was Dr. Turner talking about?

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#23

Post by GFM2000 » 29 May 2002, 08:23

Hi all,

Although I have read a little regarding the lampshades and the tattooed skins (and their associated with a Madame Koch),. I have never read or heard anything about Nazi warcrimes pertaining to shrunken heads. Where did that come from????? I believe Scott mentioned that they were an Allied "plant" at Nuremberg. Does anyone else have an input into this?

Thanks!

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Re: MORE Is-Too/Is-Not...

#24

Post by MadJim » 29 May 2002, 08:58

Scott said:
Teeth are always the last to be destroyed

Roberto said:
How does Mr. Smith know this? Is this contention based on some reliable source or merely on his own wishful thinking?
I can suggest books on crime scene analysis or I suggest that you contact your friendly neighborhood funeral director - he would be able to confirm that teeth, indeed are the last to go. :P (a toothless grin)

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Roberto
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Re: MORE Is-Too/Is-Not...

#25

Post by Roberto » 29 May 2002, 11:54

MadJim wrote:Scott said:
Teeth are always the last to be destroyed

Roberto said:
How does Mr. Smith know this? Is this contention based on some reliable source or merely on his own wishful thinking?
I can suggest books on crime scene analysis or I suggest that you contact your friendly neighborhood funeral director - he would be able to confirm that teeth, indeed are the last to go. :P (a toothless grin)
Are we talking about burial or incineration?

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.

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Scott Smith
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Re: MORE Is-Too/Is-Not...

#26

Post by Scott Smith » 29 May 2002, 14:43

Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:Teeth are always the last to be destroyed
Are we talking about burial or incineration?
Both. And this incineration is on an open barbecue grill.
:)

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Hello

#27

Post by reichpapers » 29 May 2002, 15:25

Hello Scott, Roberto, long time no see.

A friend of mine recently invited me over to look at some relics he received from his grandfather. His grandfather was part of a MI unit that were with the first groups entering the camps. He said he has a bunch of paper items he wanted me to translate, but he also had a skin lamp shade and wallet. He also said that his grandfather swiped a log book of names off of an admin table in one of the camps. I will post an update on the validity of these items when I look at them. I told him that the value of the items would be pretty high, especially since he has all the paperwork on his fathers unit and travels.

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Re: Hello

#28

Post by Scott Smith » 29 May 2002, 15:31

reichpapers wrote:Hello Scott, Roberto, long time no see.
Yeah, welcome back to the forum!
:)

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Roberto
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#29

Post by Roberto » 29 May 2002, 17:27

Hi Reichpaper,

Nice to hear from you again.

If you need any help with the translations, let me know.

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MadJim
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I believe both

#30

Post by MadJim » 30 May 2002, 22:06

I believe thats the case in both situations. I have been shown photographs where bodies have been destroyed/disolved with acid - and the teeth were still there.



Jim

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