Allied Rapists.....

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fknorr
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#106

Post by fknorr » 07 Jul 2004, 13:45

Once again I defer to your expert "moderating" and former threats of expulsion and deletion of posts so I cannot really explain to you how little I think of your opinion of Andreas's speculation and source material vs. mine. I guess more useless verbiage makes the post somehow more intelligent since one wastes more time in the creation thereof.

I contend that Andreas's questions of how the US Army's raping of German women corresponds w/German rape numbers of the time are a waste of (virtual) ink as (a) the topic is Allied Rapists and (b) although I am sure that German on German rape happened during that particular time, I would go out on a limb and say that most Germans were more preoccupied w/eating and rebuilding the homes that the Allies bombed flat.

I will direct everyone to my scans (FYI the only person to provide some sort of source to their "on topic" speculation) which states that during the period covered in the report "despite the sharp and continued reduction in US Army Troop strength", the crime rate per 10,000 troops ROSE from 3.7 to 11.1. It also goes on to state that all Major crimes went down by January 1946 but RAPE by US Army Troops did not for several more months. If someone wants to track down US Army troop strength and it’s reduction during the period covered in the document vs. German rape reports, knock yourselves out.

I believe my data presented about "unreported rape statistics" was relevant. I believe that if anything the numbers in post war Germany were higher than those I put forth and if you took notice I used numbers lower than those stated (27-37%) just to give the US the benefit of the doubt. I as a army veteran that was deployed overseas (20+ years ago) know how at times certain things were "handled" by the unit and therefore swept under the carpet. I believe shame is shame over being sexually assaulted no matter what era and no matter the nationality or the year. There may be a certain reluctance to admit that you have been violated, even if your only crime is being in the wrong place at the wrong time I also believe what I have read about the German population in their defeat, that they "took" their punishment with a certain dignity as the losers. I believe that many German women were simply resigned to their fate as a female of a conquered nation.

I would also state that the American rape numbers are just one slice of the heinous pie...we haven't really looked into the British, the brave French, the Poles, the Russians and all the displaced persons rampaging through Germany on their way back to their homes in foreign lands (the latter two having the worst reputation for these crimes). For some to state here that this (rape) has happened to conquered peoples by the conquering armies since the dawn of time and somehow place this under the "to the victors belong the spoils heading" as some excuse, I find repugnant.

Andreas
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#107

Post by Andreas » 07 Jul 2004, 20:29

fknorr wrote:I contend that Andreas's questions of how the US Army's raping of German women corresponds w/German rape numbers of the time are a waste of (virtual) ink as (a) the topic is Allied Rapists and
It depends on what you want to do - i.e. understand whether there was a serious problem or advance an agenda, regardless of how the facts fit it. The numbers you posted are useless in assessing the extent of the problem unless you take context into account, such as reporting rates, numbers of US troops, rape rates, etc. You appear to be very selective about what kind of contextual data you want to use. That is your perogative.

My posts were intended to show one way of doing that analysis by looking at the number of perpetrators in the population - you need to substitute figures from the time, but then you can follow through on some of the comparative analysis. Of course, if you have no intention of doing that, then feel free not to do it. Your numbers are on the face of it not an indication of a significant problem though, in my opinion (again, that does not mean that any single rape is not a brutal crime that should be punished, regardless who committed it, but just that I do not believe from these numbers that the US Army had a significant institutional problem with rapists in its ranks). You are welcome to disagree with my opinion, as I am sure you will, and let the reader judge for themselves.
fknorr wrote:(b) although I am sure that German on German rape happened during that particular time, I would go out on a limb and say that most Germans were more preoccupied w/eating and rebuilding the homes that the Allies bombed flat.
Since there were children born in the years 1946 and 1947 in Germany, I think it is a safe guess to assume that at least some Germans had other things in mind too. Fact of the matter is we both don't know how many rapes occurred in the country, regardless of who committed them, or at least if you do know it you have not shown it. Whether the British, French, and/or other groups did indeed commit a huge number of rapes has not been shown by you. If you want to make such a claim, I look forward to you backing it up somehow.


Human beaing
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Don't touch.....

#108

Post by Human beaing » 14 May 2005, 18:23

Don't touch my genocide, my holocaust, my murders, my history, my propaganda and my rapists.... could I say, after reading your poetry! Tonight look at your Mothers, wives and daughters in the eyes and try to justify them all you wrote here.

:( :( :(

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miller31
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French troops

#109

Post by miller31 » 20 May 2005, 17:59

I've heard that French Troops were especially bad in their occupying zone.

Sergey
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#110

Post by Sergey » 09 Jan 2007, 19:18

New book will be published this year.

http://www.palgrave-usa.com/catalog/pro ... 023050647X
coburg22 wrote:Sergey,

Hello, I am just curious what point you are trying to make?
I haven't any point at all. I quoted some sources to initiate a discussion.
coburg22 wrote: In one thread you bring up the fact that Americans killed Japanese POW's and now you are starting a new thread about Americans raping women all over Europe?
Note Coburg that they are not my allegations. And you are not quite right. Recently I initiated a thread about alleged crimes of Saddam's regime (Saddam is not an American as you know). Also I initiated a thread about concentration camps run by the French in Algeria.

Regards!

Sergey
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#111

Post by Sergey » 09 Jan 2007, 21:39

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... xhome.html
Home Office files kept secret for 60 years show that GIs committed 26 murders, 31 manslaughters, 22 attempted murders and more than 400 sexual offences, including 126 rapes, in the three years between their arrival and the end of the war.

They also show that American commanders allowed Herbert Morrison, the home secretary, to mislead Parliament by assuring MPs that no race discrimination was practised by US courts martial over executions for rape.
...
Figures show that, of the 122 rapes committed by Americans between 1943 and 1945, six perpetrators were executed. Five were black and the sixth was a Mexican-American who raped a 75-year-old widow at her Staffordshire home.

ChristopherPerrien
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#112

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 10 Jan 2007, 00:07

Hi Sergey,

So what?

I can accept that these figures are probably accurate,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....xhome.html
Home Office files kept secret for 60 years show that GIs committed 26 murders, 31 manslaughters, 22 attempted murders and more than 400 sexual offences, including 126 rapes, in the three years between their arrival and the end of the war.
Which boils down to 205 serious crimes. Considering that a few million Americans went through or were in Britian during that time I would say that is a remarkably low figure for such a demographic grouping( being composed of young -middle age males) and reflects how law abiding just about ALL American soldiers were.

I really like the Headline
Wartime GIs went on rampage :roll: of rape and murder
By Ben Fenton

Obviously Mr. Fenton hates America, and the tripe he is spewing out is identical to crap communist/ left-wing propaganda that such "stooges" have been spewing out, since the rise of communism, now long gone. And the mention of obsolete punishment disparities between black and white criminals , is simply using the tactic of "Race baiting" to diquise his baseless accusations.

Chris
Last edited by ChristopherPerrien on 10 Jan 2007, 00:22, edited 2 times in total.

minimus
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#113

Post by minimus » 10 Jan 2007, 00:14

Sergey is yet again trying to show that the western allies were just as brutal occupiers as the Russian forces. He gave himself quite a task.

David Thompson
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#114

Post by David Thompson » 10 Jan 2007, 01:27

minimus -- Please avoid personal comments and discuss the subject rather than the posters.

Michael Kenny
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17,080 GI rapist is really 850..............................

#115

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 May 2007, 23:52

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Very recently,(August 9th 2003) i read this article (scanned) in the french press (Present diary) wich is nothing more then the resume of a book from an american historian,J.Robert Lilly (''La face cachee des GIs'' wich is the tittle of the french version of the book) where this universitarian states in his introduction :'' The image of american troops that i show in this book is a violent contrast with the one established in the USA ...all the representations that we have from them in England and France always showed them as generous,welcomed friends...''
From the article : -translation- '' J.Robert Lilly estimate for 3 countries only,(England,France and Germany) 17080 rapes committed by US soldiers between 1942 and 1945: 2420 rapes in England , 3620 rapes in France and more than 11040 rapes in Germany.....( no one US soldier was executed for those crimes in Germany but some were executed for rapes committed in England and France.) ... the very important number of black rapists ,without proportion with their small representation in the US army (10 % of the manpower).They were,too,punished more severely...''

I find interesting those hidden facts....(untill today...).
Just noticed this as I check back through the thread for something else and I think you should know that Lilly did not find 17,000 rapes.

http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/?m=200610

"Lilly explained the rationale for his research and the need to set the record straight on World War II:

“We wrote a very vainglorious portrait of what we did. If we had fighting on our own soil, if we had seen destruction here, if we had experienced murder, theft and rape here, I don’t think we would have glorified the war as much…. I was trying not to make it political. It’s just a study of rape in wartime.”

Lilly examined the US military archives and trial transcripts to analyze rapes committed by US forces in England, France, and Germany. He discussed the issue of the “crime of rape” and “wartime rape”. He examined the rapes committed in England in the chapter “England: White Women”. The rapes in France were analyzed in the chapter “France: Breaking and Entering”. The rapes in Germany were examined in the chapter “Germany: Operation Plunder”. Finally, he analyzed “wartime justice” in the “context” of US racism. Punishment for rape depended on race. Rapes of white women by black US troops were punished severely.
Lilly examined records of cases tried by the US military courts. He found that there were 121 rape victims in England, 181 in France and 552 in Germany. In the UK and France, these were rapes committed by US soldiers in allied countries. He estimated that “American soldiers could have raped as many as 17,080 women in the European theater” because only about one in 20 rape victims reports the crime.

Lilly found that the US Army executed 70 soldiers in Europe convicted of rape “but none of them was convicted of raping German women”. Did the US military condone the rape of German women?

Lilly also found that the death penalty was handed out to black soldiers at a ratio of two to four times that handed out to white soldiers. Lilly concluded that this discrepancy was based on institutionalized and systemic racism prevalent in the US at that time: “military prosecutors felt more outrage at a black man raping a white woman, and so prosecuted this crime with more zeal.”


So the actual rape numbers were multiplied by 20 to get an ESTIMATE of rape numbers. If this was ap[plied to the 550 German rapes in 1941 it would mean 11,000 rapes.

I did not read everything so I hope it has not been pointed out earlier

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