Allied Rapists.....

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David Thompson
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#16

Post by David Thompson » 08 Sep 2003, 02:42

Ostuf Charlemagne -- That's fine; I usually give as good as I get. I appreciate the reference. The book isn't turning up on my Google search, though. Did it have another title?

Timo
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#17

Post by Timo » 08 Sep 2003, 15:13

Also, sources could do with a little more detail. I can claim all sorts of things and say they are the fruits of my own research. What actual prove do you have? I am quite in doubt. For example about people who were taken away by partisans and never seen again. It seems difficult to me to label such a case as a sex crime. Who testified about what happened and under what circumstances?


Rob - wssob2
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re: rapes etc.

#18

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 08 Sep 2003, 18:36

Rob-WSSOB, with reference to your queries regarding my post, the two books '44' and '45' by Charles Whitting should be of intrest.

Do you mean Charles Whiting or Charles Messenger? Are the book titles "1944" and "1945"?
"SS-Panzergrenadier" omits to mention that the German high command suspended its court martial regulations in at least one entire theater of war (the eastern front), and consequently German soldiers there hardly ran the risk of being convicted of rape or anything else.
Excellent point David. BTW the suspension of the court martial regulations David mentions is more commonly known as the "Barbarossa Order."
"Rob-wssob : The commissar order have nothing to do with rapes and rapes is what we are talking about
Yes the Commissar Order has nothing to do with rapes. But I’m talking about the Barbarossa Order – in which Hitler decreed that German soldiers would not be bound by the laws of war or subject to standard military regulations in their dealings with the "hostile population" of the USSR. So a German landser could rape a Ukrainian civilian in the course of an antipartisan sweep and would officially not be subject to any sort of disciplinary proceeding. Except if he were W-SS, in which case he might be indicted for raced defilement.
"Officiellement, il y a eu 17 000 viols qui ont été commis par des soldats américains dans ces trois pays, entre 1942 et 1945. Pour chacun de ces viols, il y a eu procès." –
In other words: "Officially, there were 17 000 rapes which were made by American soldiers in these three countries, between 1942 and 1945. For each one of these rapes, there was lawsuit"


Ostuf has this number broke down as
2,420 rapes in England ,
3,620 rapes in France and more than
11,040 rapes in Germany


In 1945 the entire size of the US Army was 8.3 million men.
There were over 4 million enlisted men and 230,000 officers in the US Army Ground Forces, 2.3 million men in the Army Air Forces and 1.7 million men in the Army Service Forces. In the ETO the US Army Ground Forces were organized into four armies (First, Third, Seventh and Ninth) and 60 divisions plus circa 18 corps formations and many independent units. (source: George Forty’s "US Army in WWII")Given all that, I would estimate the number of US servicemen serving in the UK, France and Germany from 1942 to 1945 as at least 4 million men.
I wanted to raise a couple of points:

If there were indeed 17,000 "rapes" involving 4 million US servicemen in a three year period in three different countries, this isn’t a statistically relevant number to make an overall judgement about the conduct of GI troops in the ETO.

The terminology we’re using in this discussion is imprecise. Does "17,000 rapes" mean 17,000 rape trials or rape trial convictions? What legal offenses does the word "rape" cover in this discussion? (e.g. rape, attempted rape, sexual assault, statutory rape, etc.) It sounds like there were 17,000 courts martials for various rape offenses. The fact that there were 17,000 documented "lawsuits" (trials?) indicates that the US Army did not shy away from prosecuting its own troops when they might have violated Article 92 of the US military’s Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Did you know that 70,000 British women during WWII married US servicemen and immigrated to the USA? There’s an entire book about the subject:
("Good-Bye, Piccadilly: British War Brides in America" by Jenel Verden – see http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 6?v=glance)
So, Ostuf, it seems there were a lot more British War Brides crossing westward across the Atlantic than there were GI rape cases in Britain.

Can you tell me about same cruel rapes by the german army,SS, SD in the western Front ? And give names ?
I’m sure somebody could, were he willing to take the time to research Wehrmacht primary source documents. I’ve never found any references to Wehrmacht rape cases per se, but I did read in William Yenne’s " Black '41: the West Point Class of 1941 and the American Triumph in World War II" about Allied troops in southern France encountering some female slave laborers who claimed that they been forced into becoming "comfort women" at a Wehrmacht brothel. I’ll see if I can track down the reference.

"The german army (and the SS) were never know as such sex offenders (rape was punished in every case by ''Todstreife '',death sentence.)" is little more than a "fairy tale."
One "sex offender" who beat the system and avoided a race defilment charge was SS cavalry commander Hermann Fegelein, who in Dec 1939 convinced his subhuman Polish mistress to have an abortion to cover up their affair. However, she spilled the beans about their relationship in a Gestapo interrogation. Himmler hushed the whole incident up and pressured Fegelein to find a nice German girl and settle down. He did – marrying the sister of Eva Braun. (see "Himmler’s Cavalry" by Paul J. Wilson, p. 163 and footnote 62 which references the primary source SS Legal Dept. documentation)


From my personal sources,the most and worst sex offenders from the western allied,were :

- the italians partisans.
- the jewish brigade of the british army (which slaughtered the families of the anticommunist cossacks ,raping all the women,near Linz in June 1945)
- the french partisans and french colonial troops :
-
Partisans and untermensch – how surprising! ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob-wssob : So you discovered some SS were Nazis ? Congratulations,my friend ! Try a bit harder and you will to discover the tedious water,also...
(In base of my sources,i can assure you that Hitler was a Nazi,too.)
Of courses they were nazis
Well, Ostuf, I’ve gotta commend you for your willingness to admit that some W-SS soldiers were Nazi’s. Usually the "party line" (no pun intended) is that they were to a man apolitical and "only soldiers like the others".
By the way,you have a lot of stomach to comparate Hans Schmidt with Julius Streicher...Obviously an exageration.
Yes. I’m sure Schmidt’s book sales don’t approach Streicher’s magazine circulations.
Fact : Did H.Schmidt witnessed a rape by US soldiers,yes or not ??
I must have missed that part. It’s easy when every page Schmidt wrote about his WWII experience is followed by a 20 page rant about how America is evil and Jews control the media and Wall Street. (but I did think his rant on the Tora Bora bombings was over-the-top funny, although obviously unintentionally on his part)

BTW I don’t understand what all your accounts from 1944-45 Italy are supposed to illustrate rape as an official Allied policy, other than painting Fascists as innocent victims in what was essentially a civil war. I too would like to learn more about your sources and the context of your accounts.

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#19

Post by CHRISCHA » 09 Sep 2003, 00:07

Yes, I apologise, I of course meant Charles Whitting.

The books are merely entitled '44 and '45. They do give good examples of allied rape.

I bow out of this discussion now. I don't want to be criticised for making a comment that was given in an unbiased way, and indeed don't have the detail that Ostuf Charlemagne does.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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#20

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 09 Sep 2003, 05:46

Gone answer soon...ber patient.... i writed too much there and the message get lost (&$""·&/=)IO*Ñ!!!!!! have to do that again tomorrow !

Luca
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#21

Post by Luca » 09 Sep 2003, 14:12

Timo Worst wrote:Also, sources could do with a little more detail. I can claim all sorts of things and say they are the fruits of my own research. What actual prove do you have? I am quite in doubt. For example about people who were taken away by partisans and never seen again. It seems difficult to me to label such a case as a sex crime. Who testified about what happened and under what circumstances?
Exactly!
and in the thausands cases of daughters, mothers, wifes of fascists or presume fascists that was take from the partisans bands, no was possible say if they was raped or not, cause they no was found in life.
Cause you ask more detail i show this pic.The woman was take in the month of July 45 near Milano from the partisans cause was suspected of fascism. Nobody was able to say if she was raped or not, cause was found the body, but no eye witness.
Luca
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Luca
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#22

Post by Luca » 09 Sep 2003, 14:42

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:- The titist partisans seized Visinada,a small village of Istria,near Pola harbour in september 1943,taking vantage of the changing of side of the italian royal army.... 16 of them arrested Norma Cossetto,a 23 old student,just guilty to be an italian woman.They tied her to a three,tortured her sexually ,raped her repeatedly and then throwed her in a ''foiba'',a natural well in the mountains ,along with 26 italian civilians...
Those partisans were commanded by Antonio Paizan,a former italian soldier who joined the titists after the armistice of july 43.Somedays later the germans launched a counter offensive,liberated the village and an SD unit captured Paizan and the 15 ones who confessed their crimes against the italian population...This way, italian authorities were able to extract the 27 corpses and give them a decent burial.Paizan and the 15 partisans were shot by an SD firing squad.
I want add that they was captured cause they was drunks when the Germans arrived, and the great part of the band sleeping, so no was able to escape.
They was forced to extract theyself the bodyes from the foiba.
The execution of the SD was an act of pity, cause the intentions of the pacific population of the town after days and days of terror cause the actions of the partisan band in the town no was so good as a friendly bullet.
Immediate before the execution some of the members of the band cry as childrens asking pity. The hero Paizan was 1 of these.
If when they cry, they have remember the tears, the howls, the agony of Norma, is unknow.
The band have throw 27 (or was 26? sorry, in this moment i no remeber well) bodyes in a bad hole named foiba, but the corps of the band was put in singles (no mass) graves from the population of the town after the departure of the germans and for what i can know, they stay there again.
Luca

Ps : if someone want ask, i no have any source.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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#23

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 10 Sep 2003, 03:03

Luca : A big ''grazie'' for the help,the info and the pic...goes straight to my archives !

Timo :In the only case i mentionned where the body was not found,it was easy to know : two partisans bragged a lot about how they did it.

Rob: I don't want really to defend Fegelein,a soldier who tried to desert Berlin,lefting his wife defenseless.....
BUT....even if what you mentionned is surely not nice,it looks more like a Bill Clinton's style of affair,than a war crime (she was his mistress so she was willingly cooperative,right ?) .... and at last ,he didn't buried her alive !
- Schmidt book sales : Funny. At last you runned away form the point with some humor ....

So the US mobilized 4 millions men and ,by statistics,few were rapists.Good to know,and i agree,even if statistics don't matter a lot for the poor victims... Germany mobilized 10 millions men and women (incluiding foreign volunteers) .As said Norman E.Harms in ''Waffen-SS in action'' Squadron/signals publications,:
'' The fact remains that atrocities were carried out,but implemented by only a small number of the almost one million men who passed through the Waffen-SS during the course of the war.''

It seems that what you accept for one side,you don't accept for the other side...Obviously you don't practice what you preach.... that removes some of your credibility.Face it ,the truth is that those poor women don't sensibilize you because the facts were perpetred by your side !
Beware,Rob,you are blinded by the hate....

Ostuf Charlemagne
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#24

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 10 Sep 2003, 03:36

Thompson : Sorry to be late ! Don't be sorprised if you don't find the book,it was forbidden by french govt. (Usually so demostrative about freedom of speech,human rights and the like ).

I lived in 15 countries,being active within radical right-wing groups,in my youth time,wich gave me a lot of contacts with axis veterans....for instance ,living in Spain in the 70's ,i belonged to the Franco's Youth (phalangist blue shirts) and lots of fathers of my comrades were vets of the ''Division Azul''..... more on that later.... in the 90's i proposed to my friend Andre Bayle to write a book about allied war crimes.Bayle being a former Uscha of the 8th SS french sturmbrigade and Charlemagne (EKI,EKII,KVKII,Nahkampfspange,) had been there and witnessed a lot of russian war crimes in the front and as a POW at Tambov camp (where daily calories allowance were less than in Auschwitz.) At this time,Bayle had writed his memories book ''De Marseille a Novosibirsk '' and was about to publish ''San et Persante'',the history of french SS units (ask your french readers) both author published. It took me me one year (93-94) to write my part.Book was announced in some friendly medias...then the police stormed his house,seized the first samples of ''Forgotten Crimes of the Allies'' and the first ones of ''San et Persante'' -wich have nothing to do- and Bayle was sued and fined for one million francs (more than 200,000 US$).......(San et Persante was published only recently,by the way) .The motive was for ''apology of nazi war crimes'' and the books was about allied crimes...nothing to do !!!
Panzermahn,from this forum ,tried kindly to find me a publisher in his country (Malaysia)...but i guess malaysian people don't give a damn about WW2.... so i'm always looking to publish my book,anyplace (not France !!!).. maybe my friend Rob will help me :lol:

How to write a book ? How to find the sources ?

First i bought or get a lot of books about the same topic,like Other Losses'' of J.Bacques,or ''Dietro gli scogli of Zara'' by Luxardo ,editrice Goriziana,or ''Gorizia ,cimitero senza croci'' by Felice Gigliotti.
Or also ''La sierra en llamas''by Angel Ruiz Ayucar,Fuerza Nueva Editorial,Madrid - where you will find a lot about atrocities of the spanish maquis in 1945-48. Like italian congressman Giorgio Pisano who sent me his book ''Il triangolo della morte'' Mursia 1992. -the pic of Maria Domenica Ghidini comes from this book,the one of Norma Cossetto was published in ''La Legione'' magazine of Asociazione D'Arma Fiamme Nere-
wich is about partisans war crimes in only one province (the Reggio Emilia one ) and he publishs there a list of 3,976 victims names.Where the first partisan crime happened in Sept.19th 1943 and the last one by June 4th 1949,four years after the war....because you have to know that
-like in Yugoslavia-the goal of reds partisans was the revolutionnary insurgence.And they tried in France,Spain and Italy...Partisans crimes happened in Spain untill 1948,untill 1949 in Italy. In France,De Gaulle had to deal with Stalin to avoid that.For this very reason,the communists chiefs in France (who sabotaged army supplies in 1939,remember the german-soviet pact !) were amnistied (so they were free to sabotage again army supplies from 1948 to 1954,in Indochina ,during the french Vietman war...)
And since 1945,the ministery of Education stayed in hands of the communist party...with devastating results.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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#25

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 10 Sep 2003, 04:08

(i follow ) as an anecdote,my history professor,member of communist party,once taught us about China,saying the chineses were buddhists.I stood up saying that ounder communism,the chineses were forbidden to practice any religion...so i was punished...just to had said the truth.So far i always enjoyed her class because she had so beautiful legs...
I am grateful to her intolerant class ( wich i remember with a smile everytime they erase my messages or when i'm threatened to be kicked out of this forum...) 'cause it pushed me more to the radical right-wing,along with some kids who were forbidden too to argue about some historical facts by intolerant professors who at the same time preached us an overdose of ''democracy ''and ''human rights''. Pretty childish.
Some years after,she find me on the streets with my paratrooper uniform.Looking at my red beret she muttered ''I am not sorprised''!

Comebacking with my book...: The first wapons of the terrorist ETA and Red Brigades were Sten smgs provening from WW2 resistance arsenals.
Links...always look for the links !
And i try to recover vintage newspapers of the time.I speak 5 lenguages so i can read in french,spanish,english,italian (my german is not so good as to read a full book ),it open my field of research. I have a lot of journalists friends (having been a war correspondant and i wrote,too,a couple of articles about axis units for ''39-45 magazine'' (Heimdal)),so i receive 20 newspapers from all around the world,each week.And here,in these ''normal'' newspapers,sometimes in find,by chance,an info (like the KGB number of Auschwitz victims wich shoked you so much.)...Then i contact vets from both sides,civilians,i ask them to remember,or if they have some pics,who joins my private collection.
(Like Timo Worst who is writing a book about an SS unit,who p.m. me asking me for pictures...)
For instance my belgian friend Kaisergruber,former Uscha of the Wallonie division,who found,in the lasts days of the war,the corpse of a young german girl in the snow...she had no ID,just a picture of her in a pocket..he kept this picture,not knowing who she was,why she died ...
Only from the association of former RSI fighters i received more than 22 pounds of documents and pictures ! Also if i can't move,i sent a friend of mine,like in Croatia,to interwiew somebody,get me an adress,or take the pic of a specific place ... I have always the manuscript,the docx,the pics... Do i explain enough ????

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#26

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 10 Sep 2003, 04:21

For demostrate :

1.pic of the young german girl found dead in the snow by belgian Uscha Kaisergruber in 1945...who was her ?...... that's private collection.

2. contacts : a personal letter of my friend Ettore Cappelletti (who passed away in 1998) president of Provincial Federation of Milano of National Union of RSI Fighters :
'' Dear Comrade, thank for your nice answer.We take oportunity to tell you our best wishes of success for your book''...

3. Vintage Newspapers .After the war,italians red partisans murdered lot of ''ennemies of classes'' even priests.This caricature from G.Guareschi in ''Candido'' newspaper from 1946 reads :
''And now,for not to be in trouble with God,let's blow up the Church !''

Thompson,tell me if you are interested,i can tell you more about some relevant axis vets i knew.... and some facts which today remains mysterious .
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Timo
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#27

Post by Timo » 10 Sep 2003, 07:04

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:''The fact remains that atrocities were carried out,but implemented by only a small number of the almost one million men who passed through the Waffen-SS during the course of the war.''
...Isn't this exactly what Rob was saying in several threads about the Waffen-SS? Thus, why is he "blinded by hate"?

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#28

Post by Timo » 10 Sep 2003, 07:07

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:who p.m. me asking me for pictures...)
...And this is relevant in this discussion? I doubt it.

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Peter H
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#29

Post by Peter H » 10 Sep 2003, 08:05

Omer Bartov's Hitler's Soldiers has something about Wehrmacht rape cases in France,in the autumn of 1940.Records indicate around 550 prosecutions,extending to even cases of bestiality. :roll:

Murder rapists suffered execution but harsh penalties were dished out to all.

Bartov,in presenting this data,was trying to show the strict enforcement of military law in Western Europe in 1940,in comparasion with what happened later in the East.

As a sideline it also demonstrates that no army(especially after the close conclusion of a campaign) can smother all violent,sexual or deviant crimes.The vacumn of law that can occur in the early days of an occupation is clearly demonstrated. By 1941/42 occupation troop crime rates had plummeted but the same could probably also be found with say US troop crime rates in France in 1946/7.

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#30

Post by Luca » 10 Sep 2003, 11:48

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:.- Carmela Gualtieri,49, schoolteacher,member of fascist party,was arrested at Modena at the end of the war,with her husband.The husband was shot and Mrs Gualtieri was token to Bastiglia village where she was forced to go naked on the streets ,raped in public,and ,finally,shot.
Dear Ostuf,
the second pic starting from the up of the page (Mer Nov 06, 2002 10:50 am) was take in the same district (Emilia) but i dont know the name of the town or of the woman.
I show it some time ago cause i recived privates messages from several Members asking for pics.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... a&start=30
Any idea if can be the same fact?
Thank You
Luca

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