Allied Rapists.....

[Rob - wssob2]

The political opinion of an person the definition if his statements are true or not?

I think you mean: Does the political opinion of a person influence the veracity of his statements? I would say yes. Deeply committed ideologues (of whatever stripe) are often more concerned with promoting their viewpoints than with the accuracy of their facts. Wasn't it Goebbel's who said "If the Führer wishes it, 2 plus 2 equals 5!!"?

I don´t think so because everything about Russian army is from communists and people who are no communists out of russian write the so called facts a little bit from another point of view!

Are you saying that everything we know about the WWII Russian Army is from "Communist" sources and therefore unreliable?

Unfortunately to date there hasn't been as much written in English about the WWII Red Army for the average armchair military historian. But there is some stuff out there. Michael Renyolds does a good job of explaining Soviet military unit structure in his book on the II SS Panzer Corps, and he's hardly a commie. As for professional military history, there is heaps and heaps of stuff - both contemporary accounts written by Wehrmacht analysts and postwar studies done by US and NATO historians - of which David Glantz is perhaps the most famous. But finding English translations of WWII era Red Army accounts is more difficult. Hopefully with the Soviet archives opening up we'll get to read more about WWII from the Soviet side of the hill in the near future.

I do hope that you would agree with me that to understand a battle or a military campaign, it's best to read accounts from both sides to get a sense of what was really going on. And the best accounts of military history - from whatever side - focus on the facts rather than promote any ideological agenda.

if a former SS mann says ''it's raining'' when it's raining ,he is a revisionnist !

LOL!

Well - Let me just say I don't think Herr Schmidt would make a good weatherman:

p 177

About the same time when Martin Luther translated the Bible, Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press with moveable type.

I suppose we have to define what "about the same time" means, considering Guttenberg was inventing the printing press in 1450-54 and Martin Luther didn't get around to translating the New Testament into German until 1520. But hey, what's a 70-year spread when your're talking about the greatness of Germanness!

Page 62:

The fact is that the Hitler regime took absolutely no measures against the major churches, respectively religions, in Germany

Guess Hans forgot about that troublesome Lutheran Pastor Hermann Niemöller, the Nazi's disbanding of the Catholic Trade Union and the Catholic Teacher's Federation, and Hitler's appointment of Ludwig Müller to form the "Reich Church" in which the Old Testament would be discarded and the New Testament purged of ideas from that "rabbi Paul"!

Here's another good one on page 88:

Neither in the Hitler Youth nor as a soldier was I ever subjected to specific anti-Jewish propaganda akin to the insidious anti-German propaganda, camoflauged as "Holocaust studies" young Americans have to suffer now

Apparently Hans is more of an "expert" on modern America elementary-school curriculum than his own schoolboy studies, during which he undoubtedly glanced at the required-reading primers by children's book publisher Julius Streicher such as "Trust No Fox in the Green Meadow and No Jew at His Oath" or "The Poisonous Mushroom". You'd think a former Hitler Youth leader would have remembered those bedtime stories!

Here's Han's views on one of the nations of "New Europe:"

The Polish elite still suffers from delusions of grandeur, and their leaders forget that history has placed their nation in the unfortunate vise of Germany on one hand and Russia on the other. Under the circumstances, Poland can never be truly independent. Many Poles also do not recognize their severe national shortcomings..."

Ah yes - those darn Poles - too stoopid to recognize how stoopid they are and thus assume their proper place as the "General Government" serfs of the Reich! :roll:


Here's one of my favorite Hans quotes, from page 85, footnote 18:

During the Third Reich the German movie industry reached artistic and technical heights unsurpassed to this day.

Ah yes...right up there with "Gone With the Wind," "Casablanca," "Star Wars" and "La Dolce Vita" are such unforgettable flicks like "Kolberg" and "Jud Suss!"

I doubt Hans has seen "Nosferatu," "Das Boot" or "Run Lola Run" - examples of excellent (and non-Nazi) German filmmaking or would care to.
And I've readt he's not much of a fan of Steven Speilberg either.


page 130

I personally belive that one of the two bombs dropped on Japan had been manufactured in Germany...The sole reason for the "Battle of The Bulge" may have been to gain time against the Western Allies in order to complete the delivery system.

That's right. Then the Nazi's were going to hide the bomb in one of the secret U-Boat pens in the Antartic... Then, the commando extrordinaire Skorzeny, flying a UFO jet and armed with the Spear of Destiny, would recapture the Arc of the Covenant from that US Government warehouse in Washington DC and then ..."

You're right Ostuf - "Panzergrenadier" isn't ALL tedious - in places it's kinda funny!

[John W]

page 130

I personally belive that one of the two bombs dropped on Japan had been manufactured in Germany...The sole reason for the "Battle of The Bulge" may have been to gain time against the Western Allies in order to complete the delivery system.

Priceless!

And to think that someone actually "highly recommended" this book and I was about to buy it :roll:

Thanks a lot Rob. That was my laught for the day

[Luca]

When this topic was open, i was a little bit in doubt.
Infact this topic was very sad and without happy informations and i no was sure that the Members was happy for read bad facts. My only happy was that someone try to give some "justice" to the memory of thousands of civils that suffered, and in the great part, dead cause the abuse of power of some "winner"; happy because also today no is possible in much cases...i dont say make justice...i say speak about these facts. I hope that this is only in my land, and sincerly i dont know if exists foreign books concern these sad facts, and nothing concern the quality of these eventual books, but i will happy when Ostuf will open a topic concern the brothers Govoni, for make some comparations (comparations that like so much to some members) , that maybe can explane better what i want say concern the possiblity of "remembrance" of ALL the war victims in my land today.
Are in any case, as i have write, sad facts that maybe can hurt the sensibility of the Readers, so im very happy that someone is able to transform, as im reading in this page, this bad sad topic in a funny amuse joke, so we all are now able to do, finally, a big smile.
Luca

[John W]

Luca: You must admit, that bit that Rob pointed out as part of the book (and many other areas in the book) are too "stretched" to make coherent sense.

BUT

Your post got me thinking:

It is no way my intention to belittle the sufferings of any of those affected. I sincierly hope I didn't offend anyone so. If I did, please accept my apologies, for I commited them out of ignorance.

Regards

[Luca]

Is no necessery any apologies, probable, as usually, my last message was a little bit melodrammatic and, after all, as i have write before, a big smile is a good medicine for any heart.
Luca

[David Thompson]

The topic is serious, and deserves a full airing. Let's stay on it.

[John W]

My apologies Mr. Thompson.

Here's another good one on page 88:

Neither in the Hitler Youth nor as a soldier was I ever subjected to specific anti-Jewish propaganda akin to the insidious anti-German propaganda, camoflauged as "Holocaust studies" young Americans have to suffer now

Apparently Hans is more of an "expert" on modern America elementary-school curriculum than his own schoolboy studies, during which he undoubtedly glanced at the required-reading primers by children's book publisher Julius Streicher such as "Trust No Fox in the Green Meadow and No Jew at His Oath" or "The Poisonous Mushroom". You'd think a former Hitler Youth leader would have remembered those bedtime stories!

I have a question regards this quote in Hans' book:

Could it be that he considered all those things that Rob pointed out to be 'normal' simply because:

a) Such amount of anti-semitism (or atleast a level comparable thereof) was commong throughout Europe/Germany
b) The comming of the Nazis made such levels of anti-semitism normal
c) He himslef was quite the anti-semite
d) a combination of one or more of the above

?

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

Let's go .....

1. About atomic bomb,it seems a squadron of Heinkel 111 was ready at the very end of the war ,in Norway,to drop it on Londres.They didn't do it because Hitler was already death. (Thanks to God,in this case....we already suffered too much bombing in Europa : 55,000 civilians deads in France , 60,000 in Italy ,thanks to american bombing (and americans were bombing civilians populations - a war crime- because they knew the Axis was not able to answer back on the US population,if so it's sure the american people would have stepped back in neutrality ...look what happened when 50,000 americans mothers lost their sons in Vietnam.)
A ''nice '' fact wich prompted the USA to do it again recently against serbian civilians...but ,yes, Mr Rob and Mr Witness are there for teach us lessons of morale...

Please ,don't ask for my sources about this Heinkel 111,i don't remember where i read it,but it wasn't a nazi book. And his bomb was one the ones the americans launched on Japan,so ,yes,i think Mr.Schmidt is pretty right there,too....

And no need to joke,Rob,about Skorzeny hitting the US,because, for your knowledge,it wasn't Skorzeny....it was Prince Borghese,the commander of the Decima Mas who was about to launch a raid - from submarines- ,yes,with his italian Seals - not to kill unarmed civilians- but for to blow up some ships in New York harbour.... a fact very well documented in Italy. This didn't happens because Mussolini was betrayed by the king and Badoglio and the armistice. When the RSI was formed ,the italian navy was not existing anymore. Of course you may -maybe- joke about italians combat swimmers,being warm in your armchair,but the english sailors in Gibraltar and Alexandria, back in these days , didn't took them as jokers, ask any former sailors of all these british ships ,sunk by Borghese commandos !

About movies : i beg your pardon,but ''the blue light'' of Leni Riefensthal was surely more dramatic,romantic then lots of today movies....
And ''Stuka'' and ''Hitlerjunge Quex '' are historically more thrue and accurate than ''Casablanca'' ( and ,yes,i saw all these movies.)

- by the way ,i think only american public is looking at ''Casablanca'' as a GREAT movie. Talk with anyone from other country ; this movie stink ! -

About liars : Goebbels was the alter ego of Simon Wiesenthal.
(at last he didn't published fake pictures.....)

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

And ,please, stay on topic....Can anyone,Rob,Witness,refute the facts i demostrated in this thread ???

So, do it ,gentlemen.....

Lucca : Yeah..... The Govoni ..... AND I HAVE PICTURES !!!

( I just wish to have more time ! )

[David Thompson]

Allied rapists ... can we stay on that subject in this thread, and start new subjects on the others, please? Any other procedure makes the threads impossible for later readers who are searching for specific topics, and also makes it very difficult for me to help them out with an index.

Not everyone would expect to find information on a Nazi A-bomb in a thread on allied rapists. I don't have a problem with discussions of these subjects, but please help me preserve this learning for those who join the forum later and can't afford the time to go through the forty-five pages of thread titles, where some individual threads are 10 or more pages long, to find what they're looking for because the information is buried in an unrelated topic.

[Luca]

Hoping that someone is so gently for traslate these notes....


23 Marzo 1945: Cave dei Predil.
Dino Perpignano, Pasquale Ruggiero, Domenico Del Vecchio, Lino Bertogli, Antonio Ferro, Adelmino Zilio, Fernando Ferretti, Ridolfo Calzi, Pietro Tognazzo, Michele Castellano, Primo Amenici, Attilio Franzon, 12 Carabinieri giovanissimi vengono catturati dai partigiani comunisti Italiani e slavi.
Dopo aver consumato una minestra a base di sodacaustica e sale nero... tra indicibili supplizie furono condotti a piedi nudi a Malga Sala.
Al Perpignano venne conficcato un uncino al calcagno e issato a testa in giù dopo aver subito violenza sessuale.
Gli altri, dopo supplizi e violenze sessuali animalesche vennero colpiti a morte con i picconi, ad alcuni Carabinieri furono asportati i genitali e conficcati in bocca, altri furono devastati a colpi di picconi.
All'Amenici venne aperto il petto e conficcata nel cuore la foto dei suoi 5 figli.
Fatto raccontato con precisione e chiarezza da Fabio Galante.


B. fu ausiliaria nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana:
Era all'epoca una ragazzina, non aveva ucciso nessuno, non aveva fatto del male a nessuno,la sua unica "colpa" fu quella di combattere per un Ideale in cui credeva fermamente.
Fu catturata dai partigiani il 25 aprile.
"Mi usarono in dieci, forse in venti. Il tempo non esisteva più.
Una volta mi tennero ferma come se dovessi essere crocefissa, in due mi bloccavano le braccia, in altri due le gambe.
Poi questi ultimi mi costrinsero ad aprirmi e, come una bestia dell'inferno, avanzò un loro compagno ubriaco che entrò selvaggiamente dentro di me.
La guerra era finita.
Mi violentarono lo stesso. Divenati il loro orinatoio, venivano a vuotarsi sull'ausiliaria B.
Eravamo allineate in ginocchio sui ciottoli del cortile e li rivedo ancora, i partigiani con il mitra a tracolla, sbottonarsi e cercare nei pantaloni i resti di quella che era stata la virilità del maschio.
Volevano farceli baciare.
Mi venne voglia di vomitare e mi limitai a sputarci sopra.
Mi fecero rotolare su e giù a calci ...".

Only some facts from an infinite list.
Luca

[FB]

Hoping that someone is so gently for traslate these notes....


23 Marzo 1945: Cave dei Predil.
Dino Perpignano, Pasquale Ruggiero, Domenico Del Vecchio, Lino Bertogli, Antonio Ferro, Adelmino Zilio, Fernando Ferretti, Ridolfo Calzi, Pietro Tognazzo, Michele Castellano, Primo Amenici, Attilio Franzon, 12 Carabinieri giovanissimi vengono catturati dai partigiani comunisti Italiani e slavi.
Dopo aver consumato una minestra a base di sodacaustica e sale nero... tra indicibili supplizie furono condotti a piedi nudi a Malga Sala.
Al Perpignano venne conficcato un uncino al calcagno e issato a testa in giù dopo aver subito violenza sessuale.
Gli altri, dopo supplizi e violenze sessuali animalesche vennero colpiti a morte con i picconi, ad alcuni Carabinieri furono asportati i genitali e conficcati in bocca, altri furono devastati a colpi di picconi.
All'Amenici venne aperto il petto e conficcata nel cuore la foto dei suoi 5 figli.
Fatto raccontato con precisione e chiarezza da Fabio Galante.


B. fu ausiliaria nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana:
Era all'epoca una ragazzina, non aveva ucciso nessuno, non aveva fatto del male a nessuno,la sua unica "colpa" fu quella di combattere per un Ideale in cui credeva fermamente.
Fu catturata dai partigiani il 25 aprile.
"Mi usarono in dieci, forse in venti. Il tempo non esisteva più.
Una volta mi tennero ferma come se dovessi essere crocefissa, in due mi bloccavano le braccia, in altri due le gambe.
Poi questi ultimi mi costrinsero ad aprirmi e, come una bestia dell'inferno, avanzò un loro compagno ubriaco che entrò selvaggiamente dentro di me.
La guerra era finita.
Mi violentarono lo stesso. Divenati il loro orinatoio, venivano a vuotarsi sull'ausiliaria B.
Eravamo allineate in ginocchio sui ciottoli del cortile e li rivedo ancora, i partigiani con il mitra a tracolla, sbottonarsi e cercare nei pantaloni i resti di quella che era stata la virilità del maschio.
Volevano farceli baciare.
Mi venne voglia di vomitare e mi limitai a sputarci sopra.
Mi fecero rotolare su e giù a calci ...".

Only some facts from an infinite list.
Luca

Here you are Luca.

But first let me warn everybody, if you agree, Luca, that the following is going to be a very, and I mean VERY, tuff reading. It is very graphical and the facts there narrated aren't suited for a sensitive audience. If this is your case, don't go further with this post.

Beginning of translation:

March 23, 1945: Cave dei Predil

Dino Perpignano, Pasquale Ruggiero, Domenico Del Vecchio, Lino Bertogli, Antonio Ferro, Adelmino Zilio, Fernando Ferretti, Ridolfo Calzi, Pietro Tognazzo, Michele Castellano, Primo Amenici, Attilio Franzon, 12 very young Carabinieri are captured by comunist and slav partizans. After having a meal based on caustic soda and on black salt (literal translation, perhaps in English its Epsom-salt, not sure though)... under unreportable supplices they wer brought, barefoot, to Malga Sala. A hook was driven into Perpignano's heel and he was hanged upsidedown, after being raped. The others, afetr bestial violences and rapings were finished with pickes, to some Carabinieri the genitals were taken away and put in their mouth, the others were devastated with pickes. To Amenici was opened the breast and his 5 children picture was driven into his hart. This facts was narrated with precision and clarity by Mr. Fabio Galante.

B. was an auxilary in Repubblica Sociale Italiana: she was a young girl at the time, she hadn't killed anybody, she hadn't hurt anybody, her only "guilt" was that of fighting for an Ideal in which she firmly believed.
She was captured by the partizans on April the 25th.
"They used me, they were ten, maybe twenty. Time was not existing anymore. Once they blocked me as if I were to be crucified, two were keeping my arms, two others my legs. Then these last two forced me to open up myself and, like an infernal beast, one of their companoins, drunk, came towards me and savagely entered me. The war was finished. They raped me all the same. I became their urinal, they came to empty themselves on Ausiliaria B.
We were aligned on our knees on the cobbled paving of the court-yard and I can still see them, the partizans with the tommyguns across their shoulders, unbotton their trousers and looking for inside them the remnants of what had once been the male's virility. They wanted us to kiss it. I wanted to vomit and I limited myself to spit on it. They kicked me up and down..."

End of translation

Best regards

[Luca]

But first let me warn everybody, if you agree, Luca, that the following is going to be a very, and I mean VERY, tuff reading. It is very graphical and the facts there narrated aren't suited for a sensitive audience. If this is your case, don't go further with this post.

Dear FB,
thank You very much for Your gently traslation.
I agree with You.
But sincerly, as i have write short time before, this is a bad and sad topic, pics no are permitted here, and cause some Members appear that cant understend what really occured, the only way for give a sort of "Justice" to the Memory of the victims is write about these facts. Sadly, this is the only justice permitted for the victims.
In any case i want say my apologies for the sensitive audience.
I can understend what can be the psicological reaction reading these historicals facts but i want also say that i hope that nobody can understend what was the reactions of the victims in subject and they relatives.
Luca

Ps : concern the reaction of the relatives i cant no remember the history of the barber of Sondrio, but is probable off topic, infact her two young sons no was raped.

[Luca]

[12 very young Carabinieri are captured by comunist and slav partizans.

One precisation that maybe can be sadly important....

..."12 Carabinieri giovanissimi vengono catturati dai partigiani comunisti Italiani e slavi."....

is maybe more historical correct traslate it with :

12 very young Carabinieri are captured by italians and slavs partisans comunists


Another precisation concern the sad second history.
These fact was narrated from the same Ausiliaria "B." that, very strange, survived at the facts.
Luca

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

Lucca, FB , Thanks both of you for these facts i didn't knew about .